Plastic Rubbish

[StevieBee]

The Surveyor said:

Why is landfill seen as being such a bad answer?

Several reasons.

Firstly, the holes we dig for mineral extraction are in specific locations that would make them suitable only for waste collected within a certain distance, otherwise transportation cost would be too high to make them economically viable.

Also, landfills are not holes in the ground (technically most in the UK are in fact land-rises). They are complex and carefully constructed bits of civil engineering that need to fully and permanently contain everything that goes in including the highly toxic leachate that the waste produces. You really don't want that in the ground water!

Then there's what we put in. Waste is defined as a material that has reached the end of it's economic life. An empty plastic bottle is nowhere near this point and technically, may never reach that point but put it into landfill and that's that - so you'd be burying a resource with value and usefulness - which would need to be replaced with new material requiring energy, oil, etc to make.

We do need landfills. There's still plenty that can't be recycled and that wont change anytime soon so landfill capacity has to be managed to ensure capacity exists and keeping things like plastic out of then is one of ways to do this.

[CardinalFang]

TheSurveyor said:

Why is landfill seen as being such a bad answer?

Deleted my response to this as, thanks to the intervention of a proper grown up (StevieBee) it turned out to be arrant nonsense! Sorry about that: I don't have exposure to that side of the industry, so that'll teach me to speculate.



Been a long week.

Edited by CardinalFang on Friday 12th January 16:32

[Prinny]

CardinalFang said:

The Surveyor said:

Why is landfill seen as being such a bad answer?

Is a very interesting point actually & one I've never heard discussed in the industry.

I'm guessing there's an enormous NIMBY element, but if you could guarantee containment, stability, odours & non-toxicity & return a sustainable wildlife or developable (is that a word?) environment then could you start to make progress on housing & green space issues?

I'll ask around, but I'm thinking that the time it would take to go from empty hole, through blizzard-of-seagulls, to green & pleasant land/executive link-detatched would be a god awful sell.

There IS a direct community benefit already in place mind. Landfill operators have to make grants available to communities within (I think) 5 miles of their sites.. My own village cricket club has a spanking new clubhouse extension, courtesy of (I think) Sita & I think it's a 50-50 club-operator pot.

When I wasn’t at Uni doing my Chemistry degree, I did some work at what was a landfill site, taking gas/water samples, etc for testing. It’s now Blackley golf club (in N. Manchester. And has height features which are entirely due to the landfill site - it was a flat site before - the aerospace works opposite might have had a part in that...)

I’d say it can happen therefore, but we don’t need all that many golf clubs...

[The Surveyor]

StevieBee said:

Several reasons.

Firstly, the holes we dig for mineral extraction are in specific locations that would make them suitable only for waste collected within a certain distance, otherwise transportation cost would be too high to make them economically viable.

Also, landfills are not holes in the ground (technically most in the UK are in fact land-rises). They are complex and carefully constructed bits of civil engineering that need to fully and permanently contain everything that goes in including the highly toxic leachate that the waste produces. You really don't want that in the ground water!

Then there's what we put in. Waste is defined as a material that has reached the end of it's economic life. An empty plastic bottle is nowhere near this point and technically, may never reach that point but put it into landfill and that's that - so you'd be burying a resource with value and usefulness - which would need to be replaced with new material requiring energy, oil, etc to make.

We do need landfills. There's still plenty that can't be recycled and that wont change anytime soon so landfill capacity has to be managed to ensure capacity exists and keeping things like plastic out of then is one of ways to do this.

Thanks, I deal with the remediation of land so totally understand the nasties that are contained within degrading waste, you're right it's horrible stuff. The transport is a point I'd not though of before, but given some of our stuff goes to China by sea its clear it can be moved if necessary.

I think it's about a balanced approach. The current anti-plastic revolution is really just a 'feel-good' exercise by middle-England to stop the whales dying, the reality being we need that reduction combined with a world-wide policy of waste management.

[CardinalFang]

Digga said:

Thank you for that hugely interesting post.

Thanks, Try & get a look around your local recycling centre: the MRF, not the council site you drop your old sofa at (pronounced murf & meaning Materials Recovery Facility). A lot of them do tours or presentations for schools/Council/Womens Institute/Interested parties. They can be proper eye openers.

See here: one of my suppliers

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=casep...

http://casepak.co.uk/the-mrf-process/

http://casepak.co.uk/about-us/virtual-education-ro...

[StevieBee]

CardinalFang said:

proper grown up (StevieBee)

Me....grown up! Mate...we really need to meet

I refer the honourable gentlemen to photo I posted a few pages back!!

The Surveyor said:

I think it's about a balanced approach........ combined with a world-wide policy of waste management.

That's exactly what's needed.

We have a pan EU policy which is being expanded with EU intervention and support into the European Neighbourhood regions (mostly where I work) so the tentacles of proper governance are spreading.

Interestingly, globally the UK is seen as a standard bearer in advancing waste management so we need to take the initiative and lead on this as others will follow,

[garagewidow]

CardinalFang said:

They probably aren't helping much, let's put it that way. The straws, I mean...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/03/22/plastic...

Owww..that bl**dy smarts.

Is it an epidemic though? How do we stop it? Who knows? Not me, but how do we feel about the fact that we have created a situation where it could happen? Me - not great - which is why I work in recycling. Will it guarantee me a glorious ascent to heaven upon my departure, or even an OBE, or powerfully built statue in the town square? Er, no, but I'm an ex City salesman & investment banker, so I had to start my path to redemption somewhere...

how the fk did that get stuck in there so tight considering they are having to pull it out with pliers causing quite some distress to the poor creature by the looks of it.

[jet_noise]

CardinalFang said:

jet_noise said:

On a very specific portion of this topic:
McDonalds plastic straws.

One of my more excitable friends is getting into a lather about these hurting turtles(!).
Is it really an issue or is this another frightening example of the green Taliban's ever pervasive power?

They probably aren't helping much, let's put it that way. The straws, I mean...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/03/22/plastic...

Owww..that bl**dy smarts.

Is it an epidemic though? How do we stop it? Who knows? Not me, but how do we feel about the fact that we have created a situation where it could happen? Me - not great - which is why I work in recycling. Will it guarantee me a glorious ascent to heaven upon my departure, or even an OBE, or powerfully built statue in the town square? Er, no, but I'm an ex City salesman & investment banker, so I had to start my path to redemption somewhere...

Thanks (and StevieBee).

That's the video. I can't see any connection to McDonalds, however.
Not is there any suggestion whatsoever that the straw came from the UK.
As we know, 90% (or more) of ocean plastic waste comes form Asian rivers.

We are lucky to be well off enough at present that this kind of concern can be afforded. And our population prefers funding this than the NHS (!). Exaggerating to make a point and assuming that (in this example) recycling/making straws out of unicorns would cost more. Whether straws are really necessary is entirely another matter and surely one which should be left to personal choice. Not mandated by the state. Or pressure groups.

[CardinalFang]

jet_noise said:

Thanks (and StevieBee).

That's the video. I can't see any connection to McDonalds, however.
Not is there any suggestion whatsoever that the straw came from the UK.

Jet_noise, here's an interesting piece mentioning straws & coffee cups, amongst others:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/analysi...

Simon Mountain is well known in the industry for a couple of things: 1) being one of the largest exporters of refuse derived fuels & 2) as you can see, speaking his mind.

He makes some valid & direct points.

[The Mad Monk]

DurianIceCream said:

The Mad Monk said:

Well don't stand there staring at it! Pick it up! Put it in the rubbish bin!

It's gone beyond just picking it up. There is about 8 million tonnes of new plastic entering the oceans each year. If you pick it up, there will be a new bit to replace it tomorrow. And the day after. And the day after that.

You are, of course, quite right.

So am I.

My response of "Pick it up" is a first reaction. Simplistic, if you like. If it's in front of you, on the beach, pick it up. Otherwise it may go out on the next tide, come into the beach two miles along the coast and someone else will stare at it tomorrow and moan 'look at that mess'.

We need government backed initiatives to remove all the bigger stuff washing around in the the oceans.

[jet_noise]

The Mad Monk said:

DurianIceCream said:

The Mad Monk said:

Well don't stand there staring at it! Pick it up! Put it in the rubbish bin!

It's gone beyond just picking it up. There is about 8 million tonnes of new plastic entering the oceans each year. If you pick it up, there will be a new bit to replace it tomorrow. And the day after. And the day after that.

You are, of course, quite right.

So am I.

My response of "Pick it up" is a first reaction. Simplistic, if you like. If it's in front of you, on the beach, pick it up. Otherwise it may go out on the next tide, come into the beach two miles along the coast and someone else will stare at it tomorrow and moan 'look at that mess'.

We need government backed initiatives to remove all the bigger stuff washing around in the the oceans.

Not in the UK we don't.
Again 90% of ocean plastic waste comes from Asia.
Stop self-flagellating!

[jet_noise]

CardinalFang said:

jet_noise said:

Thanks (and StevieBee).

That's the video. I can't see any connection to McDonalds, however.
Not is there any suggestion whatsoever that the straw came from the UK.

Jet_noise, here's an interesting piece mentioning straws & coffee cups, amongst others:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/analysi...

Simon Mountain is well known in the industry for a couple of things: 1) being one of the largest exporters of refuse derived fuels & 2) as you can see, speaking his mind.

He makes some valid & direct points.

Let's recycle more say recycling experts.
Still no link between the coke snorting turtle and McDonalds or the UK.

Oh, and don't you just hate sites with autoplay videos (/grumpy old git).

I do like the idea of refuse derived fuels, however.
Tell me more. Is this methane gathered from landfill, or summat else?
And do they use less energy and/or cost less than getting it out of the ground?

[coanda]

jet_noise said:

The Mad Monk said:

DurianIceCream said:

The Mad Monk said:

Well don't stand there staring at it! Pick it up! Put it in the rubbish bin!

It's gone beyond just picking it up. There is about 8 million tonnes of new plastic entering the oceans each year. If you pick it up, there will be a new bit to replace it tomorrow. And the day after. And the day after that.

You are, of course, quite right.

So am I.

My response of "Pick it up" is a first reaction. Simplistic, if you like. If it's in front of you, on the beach, pick it up. Otherwise it may go out on the next tide, come into the beach two miles along the coast and someone else will stare at it tomorrow and moan 'look at that mess'.

We need government backed initiatives to remove all the bigger stuff washing around in the the oceans.

Not in the UK we don't.
Again 90% of ocean plastic waste comes from Asia.
Stop self-flagellating!

A 'not my problem' approach to this kind of situation isn't helpful. The fact is, it's a problem everyone alive today is contributing to (even new borns generate rubbish from day 1) and will continue to contribute to.

[PRTVR]

coanda said:

A 'not my problem' approach to this kind of situation isn't helpful. The fact is, it's a problem everyone alive today is contributing to (even new borns generate rubbish from day 1) and will continue to contribute to.

But how much can we change the problem realistically ? If you see beaches in Asia that are totally covered in plastic what real difference can we make when most of us recycle anyway?

[jet_noise]

PRTVR said:

coanda said:

A 'not my problem' approach to this kind of situation isn't helpful. The fact is, it's a problem everyone alive today is contributing to (even new borns generate rubbish from day 1) and will continue to contribute to.

But how much can we change the problem realistically ? If you see beaches in Asia that are totally covered in plastic what real difference can we make when most of us recycle anyway?

PRTVR gets it

[StevieBee]

PRTVR said:

coanda said:

A 'not my problem' approach to this kind of situation isn't helpful. The fact is, it's a problem everyone alive today is contributing to (even new borns generate rubbish from day 1) and will continue to contribute to.

But how much can we change the problem realistically ? If you see beaches in Asia that are totally covered in plastic what real difference can we make when most of us recycle anyway?

The west cannot call upon other nations to improve if we ourselves are ignoring the problem at home or underperforming in our bid to improve.

If the UK and other western countries begin to impose controls and the public shift their behaviour to demand change, that then impacts on supply chains that often originate in Asia. The UK is seen as an aspirational state in the eyes of many so whilst we may not be able to make any direct impact, we can - and do - influence what happens elsewhere.

[StevieBee]

jet_noise said:

I do like the idea of refuse derived fuels, however.
Tell me more. Is this methane gathered from landfill, or summat else?
And do they use less energy and/or cost less than getting it out of the ground?

Refuse Derived Fuel - RDF.

It covers a wide spectrum of types. At the low end you have biomass; wood pellets formed from low grade wood waste (such as broken pallets). Pellets are used to fuel power stations to domestic wood burning stoves. Very effective and good energy input output ratio.

Methane is extracted from landfill and some types of composting facilities.

At the other end you have hi-tech stuff: Synthetic Diesel, SynGas and the like. These provide very high calorific fuels but require major investment in the plant and kit to get it.

Whether it is cheaper, of more efficient than extracting from raw materials depends largely on the fuel type and what report you happen to be reading. But it's not really primarily about that. It's another option to deal with waste where landfill or recycling isn't an option of the least efficient option.

[CardinalFang]

jet_noise said:

Tell me more. Is this methane gathered from landfill, or summat else?
And do they use less energy and/or cost less than getting it out of the ground?

Good question. No, it’s not that. The majority of your bin contents have commercial value to manufacturers who can use second hand material & people like me, who can sell it to them. However there’s still dross leftover after all the “value” has been extracted. It’s mainly plastic, which no one wants to put into Landfill, because there’re a punitive cost & it doesn’t rot down into something neutral or beneficial. So, when you see it, it’s raggedy bits of filthy plastic film & bags, scummy, mouldy plastic food trays and unidentifiable grot. (That not a technical term btw).
What is does have is a high calofic value. It burns easily. Broadly speaking it gets baled, wrapped in cling film, & shipped out from your local recycler, via trailer, to Europe, where it is used to fuel cement factories & power stations.

Why isn’t it used here? Because as I think I said somewhere else I’ll on here, we don’t (yet) have enough power stations & cement works who can take it. More power stations are in development.

We aren’t digging it up to burn it as it was never buried in the first place

Hope that helps: feel free to ask anything else.

Edited by CardinalFang on Saturday 13th January 15:02

[coanda]

jet_noise said:

PRTVR said:

coanda said:

A 'not my problem' approach to this kind of situation isn't helpful. The fact is, it's a problem everyone alive today is contributing to (even new borns generate rubbish from day 1) and will continue to contribute to.

But how much can we change the problem realistically ? If you see beaches in Asia that are totally covered in plastic what real difference can we make when most of us recycle anyway?

PRTVR gets it

Nope, he doesn't, and neither do you.

[227bhp]

CardinalFang said:

227bhp said:

If that happened and they were better than the crap they put down now it would be fantastic.They sound a bit slippery though?!

recycled newspaper is already used as a "filler" in road building: it's early days, but has some impetus. It's used in household insulation too, I believe

Edit - just saw the comment above about plastics being used for same. Sorry I missed that.

Edited by CardinalFang on Friday 12th January 10:32

I don't think we need to find use for paper though, we do for some plastics. Have we found a use for old tyres yet apart from kids playground matting? I don't know why, but they used to put (maybe still do) broken glass into building blocks for houses - as well as power station waste.