Plastic Rubbish
Discussion
StevieBee said:
CardinalFang said:
B17NNS said:
Everything CardinalFang said is spot on!Edited by CardinalFang on Thursday 11th January 16:01
The video is well known amongst the waste community and it was pointed out to me by someone from a major waste management company in the US that some of the more vocal recycling naysayers that feature in it are those who's employment is dependant upon disposal.
SteevieBee - I just couldn't stop watching & scribbling notes. I do think your idea of an "ask a recycler" thread is a go-er. It's an industry under increasing media & political attention & has its fair share of deviants etc. We're a broker btw - mainly paper, some plastics & non ferrous (alu cans - which was the only bit they got even remotely right - yes they are almost infinitely recycleable, but hideously damaging to extract & make in the first place), primarily to India, Thailand, Pakistan & also Eastern Europe where we're just starting a project in the SRF/RDF field.
Feel free to ask away people. Ta, CF
CardinalFang said:
baptistsan said:
I'm sat here with a 'plastic' cup made from starch. Why don't we see more of that? Sure M&S started to make the windows of their sandwich packaging from cellulose. Not sure if this is still the case. Alternatives are available but just don't seem to have hit the mainstream.
Cup from here http://www.biopac.co.uk/
Your right & good for you for taking the step. Just out of interest - where did you get that cup?Cup from here http://www.biopac.co.uk/
It's incentives though. Where are they? Who benefits? Who loses out? How? Look at Pringles tubes - just stupid. Even a simple water or milk bottle, could be 100% re-used, except for the fact that the body & the cap are different polymers. Somebody, somewhere has to separate the two & somebody somewhere has to pay for that.
Your plastic bottle is made of recycled plastic (is much harder/thicker & less transparent), and/or, it’s not, in which case there’s a 25p surcharge added at time of purchase. Bring the bottle back to the shop & recycle in the machine, get 25p credit back.
Works well (they do the same for glass), and it’s ‘fun’ putting the bottles in the machine. (yes, I should get out more).
Upsides include:
- less thrown away plastic bottles.
- Government gets seen as being ‘green’
- semi-centralised life-cycle, the distribution hauliers taking the produce to the store can return by way of the bottle recycler, giving efficiency gains.
CardinalFang said:
Thanks B17NNS - it had to happen sometime I suppose...
SteevieBee - I just couldn't stop watching & scribbling notes. I do think your idea of an "ask a recycler" thread is a go-er. It's an industry under increasing media & political attention & has its fair share of deviants etc. We're a broker btw - mainly paper, some plastics & non ferrous (alu cans - which was the only bit they got even remotely right - yes they are almost infinitely recycleable, but hideously damaging to extract & make in the first place), primarily to India, Thailand, Pakistan & also Eastern Europe where we're just starting a project in the SRF/RDF field.
Feel free to ask away people. Ta, CF
Happy to contribute - time availability has prevented me offering the service so good to share the load. SteevieBee - I just couldn't stop watching & scribbling notes. I do think your idea of an "ask a recycler" thread is a go-er. It's an industry under increasing media & political attention & has its fair share of deviants etc. We're a broker btw - mainly paper, some plastics & non ferrous (alu cans - which was the only bit they got even remotely right - yes they are almost infinitely recycleable, but hideously damaging to extract & make in the first place), primarily to India, Thailand, Pakistan & also Eastern Europe where we're just starting a project in the SRF/RDF field.
Feel free to ask away people. Ta, CF
I'm on the front line - behaviour change communications - so making sure you get loads of nice, clean, uncontaminated recycling to broker
StevieBee said:
...
This is a topic that falls squarely in my field and something that I am getting increasingly involved with here and internationally. I was going to open an 'ask a recycling expert anything' thread but will attempt to answer anything here instead.
This is a topic that falls squarely in my field and something that I am getting increasingly involved with here and internationally. I was going to open an 'ask a recycling expert anything' thread but will attempt to answer anything here instead.
This didn't get the recognition it deserved.
Prinny said:
My biggest wish is that we implement the German plastic bottle program (others are available, but it’s as good as any). Basically:
Your plastic bottle is made of recycled plastic (is much harder/thicker & less transparent), and/or, it’s not, in which case there’s a 25p surcharge added at time of purchase. Bring the bottle back to the shop & recycle in the machine, get 25p credit back.
Works well (they do the same for glass), and it’s ‘fun’ putting the bottles in the machine. (yes, I should get out more).
Upsides include:
Downsides would include:Your plastic bottle is made of recycled plastic (is much harder/thicker & less transparent), and/or, it’s not, in which case there’s a 25p surcharge added at time of purchase. Bring the bottle back to the shop & recycle in the machine, get 25p credit back.
Works well (they do the same for glass), and it’s ‘fun’ putting the bottles in the machine. (yes, I should get out more).
Upsides include:
- less thrown away plastic bottles.
- Government gets seen as being ‘green’
- semi-centralised life-cycle, the distribution hauliers taking the produce to the store can return by way of the bottle recycler, giving efficiency gains.
Increased shipping costs due to extra packaging weight.
Environmental costs of checking and cleaning reusable containers
Screwing up multidrop shipping due to adding all the stuff to go on the return trip (if they followed your model rather than dedicated shipping)
Extra overhead for producers to cover the whole cycle of recovering and reusing bottles.
No one actually wants this sort of thing apart from politicians wanting to be seen as green. The only model it ever really worked for was milk bottles, and to a lesser extent local breweries.
Anyway ignoring the whole handling of stuff in the recycling system aren't most of the actual high profile environmental issues re plastics and oceans in parts of the world that aren't the UK?
Thinking spevificly the Pacific and certain island and East Asian countries with some very bad habits around dumping rubbish.
Reducing waste volumes is important but so is admitting where some problems actually come from e.g. that an island paradise might be a polluted hole because the locals dump their s
t on the coast rather than because Sarah got an extra bag at Tesco.
Thinking spevificly the Pacific and certain island and East Asian countries with some very bad habits around dumping rubbish.
Reducing waste volumes is important but so is admitting where some problems actually come from e.g. that an island paradise might be a polluted hole because the locals dump their s
t on the coast rather than because Sarah got an extra bag at Tesco.WindyCommon said:
StevieBee said:
...
This is a topic that falls squarely in my field and something that I am getting increasingly involved with here and internationally. I was going to open an 'ask a recycling expert anything' thread but will attempt to answer anything here instead.
This is a topic that falls squarely in my field and something that I am getting increasingly involved with here and internationally. I was going to open an 'ask a recycling expert anything' thread but will attempt to answer anything here instead.
This didn't get the recognition it deserved.
Don't think plastic is a problem.?
Look at Thilafushi, a whole island in the Maldives archipelago made from plastic from all of the hotels and tourists that visit.
How can anyone be OK with the fact that one of the most beautiful places on earth is polluted to this extent?
The problem with plastic is it is not just around for a few years, it may never degrade at all, adding to the continued ongoing production worldwide.
Of all the plastic ever produced since the 50s, most of it will still be out there in some form or another.
China are the world's worst perpetrators, all of this plastic disposable tat that we westerners buy is made in China mostly.
His did the world spin before mass plastic production?
We all managed, we washed nappies, purchased fruit and veg in paper bags etc, the amount of plastic we produce and discard is truly horrific.
Once it has been made, even recycled, it's still there, always will be, it is the most awful man mad product we ever invented.
Something has to be done, some scientists are working on micro organisms that are able to feed on the polymers in plastics, lets hope one day, we can resolve this problem and start looking after this beautiful planet that we are merely the custodians of, not the owners.
Rant over.
Look at Thilafushi, a whole island in the Maldives archipelago made from plastic from all of the hotels and tourists that visit.
How can anyone be OK with the fact that one of the most beautiful places on earth is polluted to this extent?
The problem with plastic is it is not just around for a few years, it may never degrade at all, adding to the continued ongoing production worldwide.
Of all the plastic ever produced since the 50s, most of it will still be out there in some form or another.
China are the world's worst perpetrators, all of this plastic disposable tat that we westerners buy is made in China mostly.
His did the world spin before mass plastic production?
We all managed, we washed nappies, purchased fruit and veg in paper bags etc, the amount of plastic we produce and discard is truly horrific.
Once it has been made, even recycled, it's still there, always will be, it is the most awful man mad product we ever invented.
Something has to be done, some scientists are working on micro organisms that are able to feed on the polymers in plastics, lets hope one day, we can resolve this problem and start looking after this beautiful planet that we are merely the custodians of, not the owners.
Rant over.
Jonesy23 said:
Prinny said:
My biggest wish is that we implement the German plastic bottle program (others are available, but it’s as good as any). Basically:
Your plastic bottle is made of recycled plastic (is much harder/thicker & less transparent), and/or, it’s not, in which case there’s a 25p surcharge added at time of purchase. Bring the bottle back to the shop & recycle in the machine, get 25p credit back.
Works well (they do the same for glass), and it’s ‘fun’ putting the bottles in the machine. (yes, I should get out more).
Upsides include:
Downsides would include:Your plastic bottle is made of recycled plastic (is much harder/thicker & less transparent), and/or, it’s not, in which case there’s a 25p surcharge added at time of purchase. Bring the bottle back to the shop & recycle in the machine, get 25p credit back.
Works well (they do the same for glass), and it’s ‘fun’ putting the bottles in the machine. (yes, I should get out more).
Upsides include:
- less thrown away plastic bottles.
- Government gets seen as being ‘green’
- semi-centralised life-cycle, the distribution hauliers taking the produce to the store can return by way of the bottle recycler, giving efficiency gains.
Increased shipping costs due to extra packaging weight.
Environmental costs of checking and cleaning reusable containers
Screwing up multidrop shipping due to adding all the stuff to go on the return trip (if they followed your model rather than dedicated shipping)
Extra overhead for producers to cover the whole cycle of recovering and reusing bottles.
No one actually wants this sort of thing apart from politicians wanting to be seen as green. The only model it ever really worked for was milk bottles, and to a lesser extent local breweries.
Whether or not plastic bottles are recycled, the Government should put a stop to this stupid idea along with needing to feed on the hoof from fast food joints!
All IMHO, of course!
Jonesy23 said:
Prinny said:
My biggest wish is that we implement the German plastic bottle program (others are available, but it’s as good as any). Basically:
Your plastic bottle is made of recycled plastic (is much harder/thicker & less transparent), and/or, it’s not, in which case there’s a 25p surcharge added at time of purchase. Bring the bottle back to the shop & recycle in the machine, get 25p credit back.
Works well (they do the same for glass), and it’s ‘fun’ putting the bottles in the machine. (yes, I should get out more).
Upsides include:
Downsides would include:Your plastic bottle is made of recycled plastic (is much harder/thicker & less transparent), and/or, it’s not, in which case there’s a 25p surcharge added at time of purchase. Bring the bottle back to the shop & recycle in the machine, get 25p credit back.
Works well (they do the same for glass), and it’s ‘fun’ putting the bottles in the machine. (yes, I should get out more).
Upsides include:
- less thrown away plastic bottles.
- Government gets seen as being ‘green’
- semi-centralised life-cycle, the distribution hauliers taking the produce to the store can return by way of the bottle recycler, giving efficiency gains.
Increased shipping costs due to extra packaging weight.
Environmental costs of checking and cleaning reusable containers
Screwing up multidrop shipping due to adding all the stuff to go on the return trip (if they followed your model rather than dedicated shipping)
Extra overhead for producers to cover the whole cycle of recovering and reusing bottles.
No one actually wants this sort of thing apart from politicians wanting to be seen as green. The only model it ever really worked for was milk bottles, and to a lesser extent local breweries.
But... (there’s always a but
)If the plastic model is flawed, let’s go back to glass! Sand isn’t exactly in scarce supply, and recycling can now work - you’ve still got your downsides to a limited extent, but glass is glass, transportation can be much more centralised when you’re doing containers of shards I expect?
The plus of going back to glass is that we’re not bottling a ‘million litres/day of whatever’ in new plastic that both depletes oil reserves, and further, causes the issues this thread is about.
I know we went away from glass as plastic became ‘cheaper’. Now is the time to redo the cost:benefit analysis vs. glass?
Just some thoughts from a mildly interested bystander - I have no proof of any costs, etc...
garagewidow said:
pound for pound glass probably uses twice the energy compared to plastics seeing as it needs a higher temperature for it to become workable.
On the other hand, it is much easier to sort, can be reused without energy apart from cleaning and when discarded ends up as sand.Think milk bottles and the like. Put a 25p deposit on the bottles and it will keep kids scouring the place for empties to cash in.
speedking31 said:
What about the extra transport costs of e.g. milk in pint bottles cf 2 l plastic containers?
Valid point. 2l bottles rather than pint ones may help. As may localised production. Comes down to cost vs impact in the end. Is a penny or two on a litre of milk worth the reduction in environmental impact.Gargamel said:
If you are worried about sea levels rising, why have an estimated 5 trillion tonnes of plastic in the oceans.
I don't know where the 5 trillion estimate came from but it appears to me to be wildly incorrect. The figure is likely to be nearer to 250,000,000 which is still colossal but it is not 5 trillion; i.e the estimate is about 20,000 times too high !!I've been involved in plastics manufacturing, in one form or another, for over 30 years. Some of that time involved working with WRAP, the government's Waste Resources Action Programme, the brief was to encourage high profile brands to incorporate recycled plastics into their products. The 5 trillion figure looked far too high to me; a few mins checking online generated the 250,000,000 figure.
https://www.plasticoceans.org/the-facts/ Large scale injection moulding of plastics is a post war thing i.e the past 70 year period. The website above claim 8,000,000T per year at current rates but usage would have been very low immediately post war.
Edited by Crackie on Friday 12th January 00:33
Nothing more than a minor observation, but I've just returned to Brisbane after spending 4 weeks in the UK visiting family for Christmas. In our travels to visit in Beasonsfield, Marlow, South Oxfordshire, Ilkley, Teweksbury, Monmouth, Winchester and finally near Swindon, we could not believe the amount of discarded plastic and general crap littered about the place.
I've lived overseas for the best part of 10 years and we travel back to the UK every 2/3 years, but on this last trip the amount of rubbish, mostly plastic bottles etc really surprised us.
I've lived overseas for the best part of 10 years and we travel back to the UK every 2/3 years, but on this last trip the amount of rubbish, mostly plastic bottles etc really surprised us.
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