Momentum finally takes control of Labour
Discussion
Jonesy23 said:
To the wider electorate this lot will be seen as poison.
True, but the Tories would need to be as afraid of the "stay at home Tory voter" as Labour would be of those that think there is something rotten at the core of Labour.You don't have to be Jewish to hate anti-semitism and all that it stands for. Is JC an anti-semite? I personally don't think so but his message has got lost in the noise, nuances and lack of rebuttals. Are their anti-semites at the heart of Momentum and new intake? Yes, I think so.
Gargamel said:
It’s all about being the right kind of Labour Party, but moving towards a fully socialist/Marxist party is not going to win a GE. Ever.
sadly I'm not convinced on that issue - I do think that there are enough idealists out there that, when mixed with dissatisfied remainers/"I could never vote Tory"/non-voters/etc, it could actually happen.irocfan said:
sadly I'm not convinced on that issue - I do think that there are enough idealists out there that, when mixed with dissatisfied remainers/"I could never vote Tory"/non-voters/etc, it could actually happen.
I'll grind my motorcycle into powder & eat it if it actually happens!! I simply don't believe there are enough naive/stupid people in this country.anonymous said:
[redacted]
Also consider that most polls have a conservative bias, neck and neck does not look good for the Conservatives.Labour isn't in with a shot because they're good... They're in with a shot because the Tories stink so much the "hold your nose and vote conservative" voter has had to become a "hold your nose and vote Labor" voter.
The Tories are in disarray and have become ruled by a few extremists. Given the choice between Extremist A and Extremist B, they're going to pick the one that isn't already in power.
The Tories have lost their rank and file, the middle class voter by attempting to draw voters from UKIP. The Tories need to take a solid lurch back towards the centre to gain them back.
Murph7355 said:
Vaud said:
...and lack of rebuttals...
It's that bit that I don't get.Explain why the stock definitions of anti-semitism aren't sufficient and maybe people will get behind you and it blows over. (Or, possibly, it will simply confirm what they will think regardless if you don't).
"the stock definitions of anti-semitism don't apply, because if they did, all of us are on record dozens of times being anti-semitic. If we simply write our own definition, we can make sure we stay the right side of it."
LoonyTunes said:
SpeckledJim said:
Labour Leadership:
"the stock definitions of anti-semitism don't apply, because if they did, all of us are on record dozens of times being anti-semitic. If we simply write our own definition, we can make sure we stay the right side of it."
Who exactly said that?"the stock definitions of anti-semitism don't apply, because if they did, all of us are on record dozens of times being anti-semitic. If we simply write our own definition, we can make sure we stay the right side of it."
SpeckledJim said:
LoonyTunes said:
SpeckledJim said:
Labour Leadership:
"the stock definitions of anti-semitism don't apply, because if they did, all of us are on record dozens of times being anti-semitic. If we simply write our own definition, we can make sure we stay the right side of it."
Who exactly said that?"the stock definitions of anti-semitism don't apply, because if they did, all of us are on record dozens of times being anti-semitic. If we simply write our own definition, we can make sure we stay the right side of it."
LoonyTunes said:
SpeckledJim said:
LoonyTunes said:
SpeckledJim said:
Labour Leadership:
"the stock definitions of anti-semitism don't apply, because if they did, all of us are on record dozens of times being anti-semitic. If we simply write our own definition, we can make sure we stay the right side of it."
Who exactly said that?"the stock definitions of anti-semitism don't apply, because if they did, all of us are on record dozens of times being anti-semitic. If we simply write our own definition, we can make sure we stay the right side of it."
I'll gladly withdraw it if it turns out that the Labour leadership are writing their own definition of anti-semitism for another reason, other than the issue of being hung out to dry by the proper one.
captain_cynic said:
The Tories are in disarray and have become ruled by a few extremists. Given the choice between Extremist A and Extremist B, they're going to pick the one that isn't already in power.
The Tories have lost their rank and file, the middle class voter by attempting to draw voters from UKIP. The Tories need to take a solid lurch back towards the centre to gain them back.
U wot m8?The Tories have lost their rank and file, the middle class voter by attempting to draw voters from UKIP. The Tories need to take a solid lurch back towards the centre to gain them back.
The biggest problem the Conservatives currently have is that they're firmly camped in the centre, having basically morphed into a version of New Labour.
Actual conservative policies and politicians have been pushed to the back. The leadership is all woolly liberals.
If they need to move anywhere it isn't to the centre.
Jonesy23 said:
captain_cynic said:
The Tories are in disarray and have become ruled by a few extremists. Given the choice between Extremist A and Extremist B, they're going to pick the one that isn't already in power.
The Tories have lost their rank and file, the middle class voter by attempting to draw voters from UKIP. The Tories need to take a solid lurch back towards the centre to gain them back.
U wot m8?The Tories have lost their rank and file, the middle class voter by attempting to draw voters from UKIP. The Tories need to take a solid lurch back towards the centre to gain them back.
The biggest problem the Conservatives currently have is that they're firmly camped in the centre, having basically morphed into a version of New Labour.
Actual conservative policies and politicians have been pushed to the back. The leadership is all woolly liberals.
If they need to move anywhere it isn't to the centre.
Jonesy23 said:
captain_cynic said:
The Tories are in disarray and have become ruled by a few extremists. Given the choice between Extremist A and Extremist B, they're going to pick the one that isn't already in power.
The Tories have lost their rank and file, the middle class voter by attempting to draw voters from UKIP. The Tories need to take a solid lurch back towards the centre to gain them back.
U wot m8?The Tories have lost their rank and file, the middle class voter by attempting to draw voters from UKIP. The Tories need to take a solid lurch back towards the centre to gain them back.
The biggest problem the Conservatives currently have is that they're firmly camped in the centre, having basically morphed into a version of New Labour.
Actual conservative policies and politicians have been pushed to the back. The leadership is all woolly liberals.
If they need to move anywhere it isn't to the centre.
Further it's only because UKIP are so disorganized that even more have not jumped ship (yet).
captain_cynic said:
Also consider that most polls have a conservative bias, neck and neck does not look good for the Conservatives.
Labour isn't in with a shot because they're good... They're in with a shot because the Tories stink so much the "hold your nose and vote conservative" voter has had to become a "hold your nose and vote Labor" voter.
The Tories are in disarray and have become ruled by a few extremists. Given the choice between Extremist A and Extremist B, they're going to pick the one that isn't already in power.
The Tories have lost their rank and file, the middle class voter by attempting to draw voters from UKIP. The Tories need to take a solid lurch back towards the centre to gain them back.
This is wishful thinking on your part. All the polling in the run up to the GE had Labour ahead, so did the exit poll. All were wrong, shy tory is a bigger factor than your inherent bias. Labour isn't in with a shot because they're good... They're in with a shot because the Tories stink so much the "hold your nose and vote conservative" voter has had to become a "hold your nose and vote Labor" voter.
The Tories are in disarray and have become ruled by a few extremists. Given the choice between Extremist A and Extremist B, they're going to pick the one that isn't already in power.
The Tories have lost their rank and file, the middle class voter by attempting to draw voters from UKIP. The Tories need to take a solid lurch back towards the centre to gain them back.
No one is going to mix the two parties up, its clear - vote for Corbyn is to vote for a Jew hating extremist, who wants to re nationalise industries, give power to the unions, squeeze the middle until the pips squeak, borrow, tax and bring in terrible identity politics to every public institution. A man whose Black Shirt thugs hound a decent man like Frank Field for having the temerity to defy the Labour whip on three occasions under Corbyn. Corbyn who himself on 483 occasions voted with the Conservatives against Labour Policy....
I can't see any of the Blair/Cameron middle accidentally voting for Corbyn. If you ever fancied a crack at being an independent, this could be YOUR election !
Gargamel said:
captain_cynic said:
Also consider that most polls have a conservative bias, neck and neck does not look good for the Conservatives.
Labour isn't in with a shot because they're good... They're in with a shot because the Tories stink so much the "hold your nose and vote conservative" voter has had to become a "hold your nose and vote Labor" voter.
The Tories are in disarray and have become ruled by a few extremists. Given the choice between Extremist A and Extremist B, they're going to pick the one that isn't already in power.
The Tories have lost their rank and file, the middle class voter by attempting to draw voters from UKIP. The Tories need to take a solid lurch back towards the centre to gain them back.
This is wishful thinking on your part. All the polling in the run up to the GE had Labour ahead, so did the exit poll. All were wrong, shy tory is a bigger factor than your inherent bias. Labour isn't in with a shot because they're good... They're in with a shot because the Tories stink so much the "hold your nose and vote conservative" voter has had to become a "hold your nose and vote Labor" voter.
The Tories are in disarray and have become ruled by a few extremists. Given the choice between Extremist A and Extremist B, they're going to pick the one that isn't already in power.
The Tories have lost their rank and file, the middle class voter by attempting to draw voters from UKIP. The Tories need to take a solid lurch back towards the centre to gain them back.
No one is going to mix the two parties up, its clear - vote for Corbyn is to vote for a Jew hating extremist, who wants to re nationalise industries, give power to the unions, squeeze the middle until the pips squeak, borrow, tax and bring in terrible identity politics to every public institution. A man whose Black Shirt thugs hound a decent man like Frank Field for having the temerity to defy the Labour whip on three occasions under Corbyn. Corbyn who himself on 483 occasions voted with the Conservatives against Labour Policy....
I can't see any of the Blair/Cameron middle accidentally voting for Corbyn. If you ever fancied a crack at being an independent, this could be YOUR election !
Either the inevitable purge by Momentum gets them, or they face the prospect of going to the country campaigning to have JC as PM.
Most have said they'll stay and fight from within, but they don't seem to be doing much fighting and they're certainly not winning at the moment; I wonder how much longer before they start to follow Field.
LoonyTunes said:
Jonesy23 said:
captain_cynic said:
The Tories are in disarray and have become ruled by a few extremists. Given the choice between Extremist A and Extremist B, they're going to pick the one that isn't already in power.
The Tories have lost their rank and file, the middle class voter by attempting to draw voters from UKIP. The Tories need to take a solid lurch back towards the centre to gain them back.
U wot m8?The Tories have lost their rank and file, the middle class voter by attempting to draw voters from UKIP. The Tories need to take a solid lurch back towards the centre to gain them back.
The biggest problem the Conservatives currently have is that they're firmly camped in the centre, having basically morphed into a version of New Labour.
Actual conservative policies and politicians have been pushed to the back. The leadership is all woolly liberals.
If they need to move anywhere it isn't to the centre.
If Blair was in charge right now he'd walk it.
Johnnytheboy said:
What saddens me (even as a core vote Tory) is that the Lib Dems seem utterly incapable of capitalising on what should be an open goal for them at the moment.
I don't see why they would .. 'popularist' is the new game in town, and across the EU. Lib Dems are on the wrong side of Brexit (probably their key appeal) and they lost the youth/popularity vote ages ago.Johnnytheboy said:
Countdown said:
If Blair was in charge right now he'd walk it.
What saddens me (even as a core vote Tory) is that the Lib Dems seem utterly incapable of capitalising on what should be an open goal for them at the moment. They may not get enough seats for an outright win but it's possible that they could be the biggest single party.
It's a bit of a slam-dunk to me.
Can't believe they won't see that opportunity at the next general election.
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