Momentum finally takes control of Labour
Discussion
AppleJuice said:
If Labour wanted to press Ctrl+Z repeatedly in one fell swoop they could do a lot worse than dumping Corbyn and electing Chuka Umunna who, unlike JC, engages with issues head-on - and might even unite the party. Then again, Momentum (seemingly populated by pointlessly cheering safe spacers / graduates still in the clasp of student politics) will probably try everything it knows to retain its grip on Labour. The sooner it goes, the better.
Why would a new blairite be more successful than Miliband? Fittster said:
The Dangerous Elk said:
Fittster said:
What policies do you regard as Marxist?
Really, try reading anything writen by Corbyn.Public ownership of utilities? Well, that would make most of Western Europe Marxists.
I think you might just be throwing around the word Marxist as a insult rather than as a critique of a particular policy.
SpeckledJim said:
I wish I shared your optimism. He didn't miss by much last time, and the drift has been in his direction since then.
Whether it's Corbyn or another, I wouldn't bet against Labour next time round, if nothing significant changes between now and then.
A couple of things to consider...Whether it's Corbyn or another, I wouldn't bet against Labour next time round, if nothing significant changes between now and then.
- May is inept as a leader and seems to struggle making up for that by surrounding herself with good people. I've said it before...if she was actively trying to throw the decisions she's made she couldn't have done a better job of it. And yet...she still took the largest vote percentage for ages in the GE.
Yes, she lost her majority. But it would seem that was down to anomalies in boundaries (which she will now struggle to rectify sadly - this should be independently sorted, not subject to the whims of turkeys) and marginal differences in key areas. (As well as the aforementioned ineptitude!).
- others have mentioned it, but JC was nowhere before. I wonder how much of his following was a "protest"/"May's s
t and I'm not voting for her" type affair on the belief that JC would never get in any way. As another poster notes, he now has to be taken seriously by everyone and that may count against him.- Momentum. I definitely think this will count against him. As they become more vocal/visible, the middle ground that might have been dumped in point 2 above will desert him.
I don't see May standing for re-election. But if she does, in fact no matter who does in the Tory party, they have to get with the times in terms of canvassing and non-stop media.
As much as I loathe Americanisms, ducking TV interviews/debates will be increasingly problematic (one thing May was right to do though as she's hopeless at it). Social media needs full blitzing too. They have to get a much, much better PR and strategy machine behind them, and they should be looking at that right now.
Am not sure they have the nous though. They need people like Ruth Davidson driving this IMO.
ATG said:
captain_cynic said:
Both parties have the same issue, the centrists are trying to keep the extremists in line and are struggling at it. The Tories should be walking all over Corbyn but cant keep their own house in order enough to do it and Corbyn is taking full advantage of it.
A lot of centrist Labour voters would vote Tory if they weren't letting the ultra-conservatives run roughshod over them. Centrists have been the controlling swing voters in recent decades but right now cant find a party worth voting for, which is why we ended up with a hung parliament and DUP getting effective control.
Vice versa, centrist conservatives would be voting Labour if they got rid of Corbyn. As it stands, he has a chance of being elected simply because of the sheer incompetence of the Tories (and I don't like that scenario either).
^ This.A lot of centrist Labour voters would vote Tory if they weren't letting the ultra-conservatives run roughshod over them. Centrists have been the controlling swing voters in recent decades but right now cant find a party worth voting for, which is why we ended up with a hung parliament and DUP getting effective control.
Vice versa, centrist conservatives would be voting Labour if they got rid of Corbyn. As it stands, he has a chance of being elected simply because of the sheer incompetence of the Tories (and I don't like that scenario either).
This is a rare opportunity for a restructuring of our party system. An SDP-like breakaway group of experienced moderate Labour Party members, plus equivalents from the Conservatives (plus at least an accommodation with the Lib Dems) has a chance of gaining critical mass. But it's a huge gamble.
ATG said:
captain_cynic said:
Both parties have the same issue, the centrists are trying to keep the extremists in line and are struggling at it. The Tories should be walking all over Corbyn but cant keep their own house in order enough to do it and Corbyn is taking full advantage of it.
A lot of centrist Labour voters would vote Tory if they weren't letting the ultra-conservatives run roughshod over them. Centrists have been the controlling swing voters in recent decades but right now cant find a party worth voting for, which is why we ended up with a hung parliament and DUP getting effective control.
Vice versa, centrist conservatives would be voting Labour if they got rid of Corbyn. As it stands, he has a chance of being elected simply because of the sheer incompetence of the Tories (and I don't like that scenario either).
^ This.A lot of centrist Labour voters would vote Tory if they weren't letting the ultra-conservatives run roughshod over them. Centrists have been the controlling swing voters in recent decades but right now cant find a party worth voting for, which is why we ended up with a hung parliament and DUP getting effective control.
Vice versa, centrist conservatives would be voting Labour if they got rid of Corbyn. As it stands, he has a chance of being elected simply because of the sheer incompetence of the Tories (and I don't like that scenario either).
This is a rare opportunity for a restructuring of our party system. An SDP-like breakaway group of experienced moderate Labour Party members, plus equivalents from the Conservatives (plus at least an accommodation with the Lib Dems) has a chance of gaining critical mass. But it's a huge gamble.
I think Captain Cynic is bang on. The right wing of the Tory party is ruining them by preventing the Tories from occupying the centre ground that Corbyn's Labour have turned their back on.
SpielBoy said:
Sometimes it isn't all about me me me
Sometimes it is about wanting a better society
I am not certain Labor will deliver that
But I am pretty darn sure the Torys won't - well not until they see the electoral consequences of the path they are currently on.
Why is it that wanting the chance to earn more money or keep more of what you've already earned is characterised as 'me me me'. While if you want some of what someone else has earned that's 'wanting a better society'?Sometimes it is about wanting a better society
I am not certain Labor will deliver that
But I am pretty darn sure the Torys won't - well not until they see the electoral consequences of the path they are currently on.
sidicks said:
Fittster said:
Wouldn't a centerist see what happened to the SDP and avoid it like the plague. Why don't the Tories expel the hard right from their party? Redwood and co for to UKIP, leaving a party many people under 50 could vote for.
What is your definition of ‘hard right’?Momentum have already taken over Labour's disciplinary panel following their NEC victory yesterday and immediately cancelled investigations into anti-Semitism. The party is going down a very dark path.
The Conservatives need to ditch May sharpish and get a much younger human being like Tobias Elwood or Johnny Mercer as leader. Somebody who can actually talk and connect with people. Not the woeful android performances May gives.
The Conservatives need to ditch May sharpish and get a much younger human being like Tobias Elwood or Johnny Mercer as leader. Somebody who can actually talk and connect with people. Not the woeful android performances May gives.
sidicks said:
mx5nut said:
crankedup said:
imo, if Corbyn is elected, and I think that this is more likely than not, this Country will be inflicted severe damage both financially and socially.
Sounds like Project Fear talking. Don't you like democracy?He’s simply stating an opinion of the impact of a Corbyn government. HTH
MX5 would you prefer it if nobody offered an opinion on future prospects of any given political party, would that suit your idea of democracy? whatever that might mean to you.
Dr Jekyll said:
Why is it that wanting the chance to earn more money or keep more of what you've already earned is characterised as 'me me me'. While if you want some of what someone else has earned that's 'wanting a better society'?
Because unless you believe in the Goldman Sachs Magic Money Tree, then there is a finite pot of money, and at the moment that money is being hosed into boardrooms where bonuses are now measured in 100s of millions of pounds.The median salary is something grotesque like GBP 26k, and has remained at that level for years, while boardroom pay soars.
At some point, even the lemonade tory is going to accept that he has been f
ked over by the Conservatives, and the tory vote will collapse.
Dr Jekyll said:
SpielBoy said:
Sometimes it isn't all about me me me
Sometimes it is about wanting a better society
I am not certain Labor will deliver that
But I am pretty darn sure the Torys won't - well not until they see the electoral consequences of the path they are currently on.
Why is it that wanting the chance to earn more money or keep more of what you've already earned is characterised as 'me me me'. While if you want some of what someone else has earned that's 'wanting a better society'?Sometimes it is about wanting a better society
I am not certain Labor will deliver that
But I am pretty darn sure the Torys won't - well not until they see the electoral consequences of the path they are currently on.
Even some Tories are now openly saying that the current situation of Boardroom
pay and fairness in Society has reached a tipping point.
esxste said:
The chief brexiteers are all right wing Tories.
Theres some factors that need to be remembered: Traditional labour voters voted for Brexit because they'd had 30 years of Tories and and Tory-lite, and wanted true change.
Traditional Labour voters voted for Brexit because they're social conservatives.Theres some factors that need to be remembered: Traditional labour voters voted for Brexit because they'd had 30 years of Tories and and Tory-lite, and wanted true change.
sidicks said:
Fittster said:
Inverse of your definition of hard left.
Given that I’ve not provided my definition of ‘hard left’ then you appear to not be able to define ‘hard right’, which makes your post somewhat meaningless!BOR said:
Because unless you believe in the Goldman Sachs Magic Money Tree, then there is a finite pot of money, and at the moment that money is being hosed into boardrooms where bonuses are now measured in 100s of millions of pounds.
The median salary is something grotesque like GBP 26k, and has remained at that level for years, while boardroom pay soars.
At some point, even the lemonade tory is going to accept that he has been fked over by the Conservatives, and the tory vote will collapse.
People equally don't buy into the Corbyn Magic Money Tree. Both extremes being equally flawed.The median salary is something grotesque like GBP 26k, and has remained at that level for years, while boardroom pay soars.
At some point, even the lemonade tory is going to accept that he has been f
ked over by the Conservatives, and the tory vote will collapse.So Momentums politics of envy are this week focussing on boardroom salaries as the message about the Queens tax evasion, Chris Evans salary and the cost of Philip Greens new yacht becomes yesterdays chip paper. You'll be comparing Premiership footballers pay to the earnings of a junior Doctor before you realise you're being played like a fiddle.
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