Trump's tariffs

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Discussion

Sway

26,312 posts

195 months

Tuesday 23rd January 2018
quotequote all
PurpleMoonlight said:
Sway said:
It leaves us having more cash in our pockets for discretionary spends. The fact that Trump doesn't give those benefits to his voters is his problem.

Every single instance of a country unilaterally dropping import tariffs has seen huge levels of growth and income.

Makes one wonder why everyone hasn't done it then.

scratchchin
Does it? Really?

When people are willing to create fallacious comparisons between tariffs and child labour, and businesses will stir the media with crap about job losses if they have to actually compete, then it's really easy to create public opinion against such a move.

This is exceptionally similar to the subsidies NZ farmers used to get (in leiu of tariffs, in order to create 'a level playing field' on price). When the NZ government announced it was going to phase them out there was uproar. The government stuck to it's guns.

What's happened now? Huge growth in NZ farming as they actually thought about how they adapt and compete.

Hayek

8,969 posts

209 months

Tuesday 23rd January 2018
quotequote all
Sway said:
Ghibli said:
https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/foreign-affai...

The above is a Rees Mogg article.

If we remove tarrifs on imports and Trump says he will not remove tarrifs on our exports, where does it leave us ?
It leaves us having more cash in our pockets for discretionary spends. The fact that Trump doesn't give those benefits to his voters is his problem.

Every single instance of a country unilaterally dropping import tariffs has seen huge levels of growth and income.
For those interested in the policy of unilaterally dropping import tariffs, have a read about Sir John Cowperthwaite.

http://www.quebecoislibre.org/06/061029-5.htm
https://www.economist.com/news/books-and-arts/2172...

silentbrown

8,852 posts

117 months

Tuesday 23rd January 2018
quotequote all
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Very sad, and hopefully only temporary. Was your switch driven by "They'll need all the help they can get post-Brexit" or general patriotism?



PurpleMoonlight

22,362 posts

158 months

Tuesday 23rd January 2018
quotequote all
Sway said:
Does it? Really?

When people are willing to create fallacious comparisons between tariffs and child labour, and businesses will stir the media with crap about job losses if they have to actually compete, then it's really easy to create public opinion against such a move.

This is exceptionally similar to the subsidies NZ farmers used to get (in leiu of tariffs, in order to create 'a level playing field' on price). When the NZ government announced it was going to phase them out there was uproar. The government stuck to it's guns.

What's happened now? Huge growth in NZ farming as they actually thought about how they adapt and compete.
Blaming people who don't consider it a good idea is a pretty pathetic argument.

If it's so great politicians and economists should be able to provide convincing evidence to prove their case.

Sway

26,312 posts

195 months

Tuesday 23rd January 2018
quotequote all
PurpleMoonlight said:
Blaming people who don't consider it a good idea is a pretty pathetic argument.

If it's so great politicians and economists should be able to provide convincing evidence to prove their case.
There has been plenty of evidence - I've even given a specific example that can be researched in the post you've quoted...

oyster

12,608 posts

249 months

Tuesday 23rd January 2018
quotequote all
PurpleMoonlight said:
Sway said:
Does it? Really?

When people are willing to create fallacious comparisons between tariffs and child labour, and businesses will stir the media with crap about job losses if they have to actually compete, then it's really easy to create public opinion against such a move.

This is exceptionally similar to the subsidies NZ farmers used to get (in leiu of tariffs, in order to create 'a level playing field' on price). When the NZ government announced it was going to phase them out there was uproar. The government stuck to it's guns.

What's happened now? Huge growth in NZ farming as they actually thought about how they adapt and compete.
Blaming people who don't consider it a good idea is a pretty pathetic argument.

If it's so great politicians and economists should be able to provide convincing evidence to prove their case.
Politicians do what gets them votes, not what is necessarily the best economic approach.

Must as I loathe protectionism, Trump is only doing what he was voted to do. I'm afraid it is the US electorate's fault if such policies turn out to cost them in the long run.

silentbrown

8,852 posts

117 months

Tuesday 23rd January 2018
quotequote all
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Could equally have done it *before* the vote, then smile
I really like the XF but (like the A6) it's really too big for the fiddly country roads around here. An XE estate would tempt me but that ain't gonna happen.

Randy Winkman

16,169 posts

190 months

Tuesday 23rd January 2018
quotequote all
Like anti-immigration laws, it shows what a narrow view of freedom some pro-freedom types have.

4x4Tyke

6,506 posts

133 months

Tuesday 23rd January 2018
quotequote all
Kermit power said:
We've had what, fifty years of increasingly free trade, and who really benefits?
Everybody, the benefits of free trade are well established in both economics and social science.

Tuna

19,930 posts

285 months

Tuesday 23rd January 2018
quotequote all
PurpleMoonlight said:
Blaming people who don't consider it a good idea is a pretty pathetic argument.

If it's so great politicians and economists should be able to provide convincing evidence to prove their case.
They can and they do. Unfortunately in the face of 'foreigners taking our jobs', governments tend towards the easy fix. It's a natural human instinct to try to preserve what we've got rather than accept change. The current political class are not from a background of science, or economists - they're more interested in social media than proven studies.

Kermit power

Original Poster:

28,674 posts

214 months

Tuesday 23rd January 2018
quotequote all
4x4Tyke said:
Kermit power said:
We've had what, fifty years of increasingly free trade, and who really benefits?
Everybody, the benefits of free trade are well established in both economics and social science.
If manufacturers here are forced into minimum wages and all sorts of other costs that their Far Eastern competitors don't suffer, is that really Free Trade?

Manufacturers aren't free to compete on a level playing field, are they?

I don't think there should necessarily be a race to the bottom, but could see a case for levying a poor working conditions tariff on some countries. If they up their workers' conditions to match the legal minimum here, then drop the tariffs, as there would then be a level playing field to compete on.

Sway

26,312 posts

195 months

Tuesday 23rd January 2018
quotequote all
Kermit power said:
4x4Tyke said:
Kermit power said:
We've had what, fifty years of increasingly free trade, and who really benefits?
Everybody, the benefits of free trade are well established in both economics and social science.
If manufacturers here are forced into minimum wages and all sorts of other costs that their Far Eastern competitors don't suffer, is that really Free Trade?

Manufacturers aren't free to compete on a level playing field, are they?

I don't think there should necessarily be a race to the bottom, but could see a case for levying a poor working conditions tariff on some countries. If they up their workers' conditions to match the legal minimum here, then drop the tariffs, as there would then be a level playing field to compete on.
That is countered, to a strong degree, by reduced transportation costs, and quality.

There is a reason why we are in the top 10 countries globally for manufacturing, and working conditions and wage expectations aren't preventing that.

Dr Jekyll

23,820 posts

262 months

Tuesday 23rd January 2018
quotequote all
Kermit power said:
I don't think there should necessarily be a race to the bottom, but could see a case for levying a poor working conditions tariff on some countries. If they up their workers' conditions to match the legal minimum here, then drop the tariffs, as there would then be a level playing field to compete on.
There is a case for not buying products made by what amounts to slave labour, but you don't do that with tariffs. Many Western firms have already successfully put pressure on Chinese employers to improve conditions.

Forcing them to match legal minimums here makes no sense. If a penniless Chinese farmer wants to spend a year or so working in a manufacturing plant far from home to build up a nest egg, he may not want to be restricted to Western style working hours. He may not want time off in an expensive city where he doesn't know anyone. He may well prefer to do all the overtime he can so as to get back home sooner, and that's his choice.

Ultimately we don't want a level playing field, that would defeat the point of trade.