45th President of the United States, Donald Trump. (Vol 4)

[Davos123]

durbster said:

If you want to know whether it's legitimate to make comparisons between Trump and other dictators, look up your favourite historian and see what they're saying. I haven't found a historian who isn't alarmed by what's happening in the US.

Or better still, simply have a look around at what the people who have lived under dictators are saying.

Lots on Twitter for example:

"Speaking as someone born in the last years of a dictatorship, you Americans are already several steps in one."
https://twitter.com/RinChupeco/status/101145975166...

"Yes, definitely. I lived through a brutal dictatorship in Argentina and I can tell you we are heading there. People should take to the streets, trust me."
https://twitter.com/RafaBlackhurst/status/10090373...

etc.

Or longer reads:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2...

The discussion was about equating Trump and Hitler. Not being concerned about the direction of the USA or drawing comparisons with some dictators.

[Lazermilk]

Tampon said:

coyft said:

Must be a bit quiet on the Russian collusion allegations today, so we've moved onto comparing Trump to Hitler.

The thread that just keeps on giving.

Madness is it.

I mean we have a person who doesn't support trump with a possible A level, and A level people! educating people and not even getting a thanks.

Even you, the king of wit and scarcasm is finding some posters comment beyond the pail.

I am a history graduate, history teacher (A level too) and general history geek (go on have a guess what my favourite time period is? I wrote my dissertation on it) I whole heartedly, with every fibre in my being argee with the education Mr Elk is quickly reading on wiki.

He is right to suggest the similar things that built up in Germany are not similar to the similar thing similarly happening in America. Even if they look the same. They aren't. Proof please. No not the photos, quotes, camps, targeting of minorities, same tag lines etc REAL proof? None, trump doesn't even have a tash, also Hitler was a socialist, says so in the title. Trump hates socialist.

I suggest we just ignore those tts trying to wind us up and carry on our circle jerk together.

Now it is my turn next. Hook your index finger over your top lip when you do me this time. It's my favourite.

Tampon said:

coyft said:

A history graduate AND a teacher!

We are not worthy.

I thank you. I will be honest mums pretty proud of it.

Come on Elk, you next, polish my knob. I want to see Coyft's face in it.

Edited by Tampon on Monday 25th June 23:57

[Eric Mc]

When a democracy disintegrates it generally does so slowly - usually with the compliance of the electorate. This happens because the electorate decides that democracy is no longer working for them and that maybe some other form of governance will "fix" whatever problems (real or imagined) they are experiencing.

Often this alternative governance is in the form of a single person who sets themselves up as a kind of saviour. Rarely does it turn out well.

Whether Trump is a modern equivalent of Hitler is questionable and I am hopeful that the democratic organs of state in the US are sufficiently powerful enough to prevent him from ever getting anywhere near being a 21st Century Hitler. However, there are disturbing signs about his behaviour and he needs watching.

An interesting comment I heard from a journo who visited one of the child immigrant detention centres is that numerous "motivational" statements were posted in Spanish on the walls. One said "Work Hard - Good Things Will Happen". That sounds awfully like "Arbeit Macht Frei" to me.

[Lazermilk]

Davos123 said:

durbster said:

If you want to know whether it's legitimate to make comparisons between Trump and other dictators, look up your favourite historian and see what they're saying. I haven't found a historian who isn't alarmed by what's happening in the US.

Or better still, simply have a look around at what the people who have lived under dictators are saying.

Lots on Twitter for example:

"Speaking as someone born in the last years of a dictatorship, you Americans are already several steps in one."
https://twitter.com/RinChupeco/status/101145975166...

"Yes, definitely. I lived through a brutal dictatorship in Argentina and I can tell you we are heading there. People should take to the streets, trust me."
https://twitter.com/RafaBlackhurst/status/10090373...

etc.

Or longer reads:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2...

The discussion was about equating Trump and Hitler. Not being concerned about the direction of the USA or drawing comparisons with some dictators.

Yeah, move along... nothing to see here

[Lazermilk]

Byker28i said:

Byker28i said:

amgmcqueen said:

Majority of American approve of Trump on economy:
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/06/25/majority-of-americ...

Trumps poll number surging:
http://uk.businessinsider.com/trump-poll-numbers-a...

Trumps economic approval ratings hit new high:
https://www.axios.com/americans-approve-donald-tru...

At the same time the numbers that support impeaching him are significantly more than those who support him...
Weird that isn't it

According to Gallup, trump's disapproval rating has risen 5% in the past week to 55%, and his approval has fallen 4% to 41%
https://news.gallup.com/poll/235955/trump-job-appr...

Byker28i said:

Has the donald or trumpettes said anything about how the Dow is down a further 441 points today, and 9.3% since January 22nd?

I thought Coyft was the local Gallup/Poll reporter, he must have missed these for some reason, even though he doesn't support him and is just providing balance...

[Tampon]

durbster said:

If you want to know whether it's legitimate to make comparisons between Trump and other dictators, look up your favourite historian and see what they're saying. I haven't found a historian who isn't alarmed by what's happening in the US.

Or better still, simply have a look around at what the people who have lived under dictators are saying.

Lots on Twitter for example:

"Speaking as someone born in the last years of a dictatorship, you Americans are already several steps in one."
https://twitter.com/RinChupeco/status/101145975166...

"Yes, definitely. I lived through a brutal dictatorship in Argentina and I can tell you we are heading there. People should take to the streets, trust me."
https://twitter.com/RafaBlackhurst/status/10090373...

etc.

Or longer reads:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2...

Well we need to run it past our resident historian Elky (might have a a level don't ya know).

Elks are these lefties leaning carrot crunchers massive drama queens or what?

I await with baited breath.

[Eric Mc]

I think the thread is deviating well away from its original purpose - which is to discuss the merits or otherwise of President Trump.

At the moment, there are far too many postings about the merits (or otherwise) of the posters.

[IJB1959]

Eric Mc said:

When a democracy disintegrates it generally does so slowly - usually with the compliance of the electorate. This happens because the electorate decides that democracy is no longer working for them and that maybe some other form of governance will "fix" whatever problems (real or imagined) they are experiencing.

Often this alternative governance is in the form of a single person who sets themselves up as a kind of saviour. Rarely does it turn out well.

Whether Trump is a modern equivalent of Hitler is questionable and I am hopeful that the democratic organs of state in the US are sufficiently powerful enough to prevent him from ever getting anywhere near being a 21st Century Hitler. However, there are disturbing signs about his behaviour and he needs watching.

An interesting comment I heard from a journo who visited one of the child immigrant detention centres is that numerous "motivational" statements were posted in Spanish on the walls. One said "Work Hard - Good Things Will Happen". That sounds awfully like "Arbeit Macht Frei" to me.

I wouldn't compare Trump to Hitler other than he is just a maverick with dictatorship traits, and also after meeting Kim he was impressed and had admiration for the way North Koreans “sit up at attention” for their leader - and expressed a wish for his own “people” to do the same.

[esxste]

The Dangerous Elk said:

We now have Franco and Marcos with a sprinkle of South American General. Why not add PolPot or Mao with Idi Amin to compleat the continental set ?

One simple fact, he is none of those and cannot ever become them.

Really chaps, this hysterical nonsense distracts from the real problems/opportunities to object/challenge Trump.

I wonder if anyone said about Pol Pot that he cannot ever become Stalin. Assuming you're not a pedant who means that Trump literally cannot shapeshift into Hitler, you're touting opinion as fact. In your opinion, Trump cannot become a dictator. Others have a different opinion, and see it is a horrifying possibility.

People are worried by the actions that Trump has taken so far are undermining and devaluing Americas democratic institutions.

For example, his attack on the majority of the american media as "Fake News". A democratic (small 'd') president with genuine concerns about the media would set up an independent and impartial inquiry to investigate and report. Trump is calling anything that doesn't favor him as fake news while he pumps out mis-truths and misinformation that one particular news network treats as gospel truth.

Another example is his very public attacks on the FBI and the Justice Department. He publicly asserts there is corruption in the ranks at the FBI and Justice Department. This undermines public trust in the existing establishments of law and order. The danger of a significant proportion of the population distrusting the organisations set up to defend democracy can not be understated.

There are investigations ongoing into the handling of certain cases; a democratic (again small 'd') president would not be publicly calling the FBI corrupt. They would not be commenting on the people involved in the cases. they'd sit back and let the democratic system resolve the issues.

It's not hysterical to point the dangers out.

Edited by esxste on Tuesday 26th June 10:00

[Gameface]

Eric Mc said:

I think the thread is deviating well away from its original purpose - which is to discuss the merits or otherwise of President Trump.

At the moment, there are far too many postings about the merits (or otherwise) of the posters.

Been a st week on this thread.

[Old Man Fred]

esxste said:

The Dangerous Elk said:

One simple fact, he is none of those and cannot ever become them.

Assuming you're not a pedant who means that Trump literally cannot shapeshift into Hitler, you're touting opinion as fact.
<snip>

It's not hysterical to point the dangers out.

Edited by esxste on Tuesday 26th June 10:00

I don't think anyone is saying it is nailed on to happen, just that there is a possibility it will happen.

Ignoring this just shows how far Trumps lies have swayed his supporters in that they are making up 'facts' to try and support their case

[esxste]

Old Man Fred said:

I don't think anyone is saying it is nailed on to happen, just that there is a possibility it will happen.

Ignoring this just shows how far Trumps lies have swayed his supporters in that they are making up 'facts' to try and support their case

Yes... that's why I said:

esxste said:

Others have a different opinion, and see it is a horrifying possibility.

[anonymous-user]

The Dangerous Elk said:

One simple fact, he is none of those and cannot ever become them.

Well, no, that's right. Were Trump to become a dictator, he'd be his own sort of dictator.

Much of the time the two sides of this discussion seem to me not to engage. One side is saying: "here's a spectrum from white to black. We are moving increasingly from the white end to the black end, and we're closer to the black end than we've ever been". Whereas the other side is saying "We're not at the black end".

Both sides are right, but that's not really the point.

As Eric says, the dismantling of a democracy takes time. Look at what Erdogan has done in Turkey. It's taken him the best part of 15 years, and he's not finished yet.

As I see it, the concerns that people have about Trump are based (legitimately, I think) on his approach to power. Throughout his business career he hasn't had to answer to anyone*. He's not had stockholders questioning his running of the company. On the contrary: his company, his rules, his say so. Automony is his thing.

Then look at who he says openly he admires. Putin. KYU. Xi. Erdogan. People who are the focus of a huge amount of power, and who are essentially answerable to no one. That's where by instinct it looks like Trump would like to be.

Then look at how he likes to run things. His preference is Executive Orders. No doubt because that's something he can get done without having to get bogged down in dealing with other people. Just like he would have done when running his business.

And then look at how he positively undermines the FBI and the Justice Department, calling them "corrupt", "crooked" and so on. Ditto judges in the early days of the challenges to the travel ban EO. Having a President positively undermining the integrity of some fundamental organs of a democracy is extraordinary. I have no issue with him challenging findings or decisions that go against him, but to allege that the institutions themselves are corrupt - before any findings have been made, so as to pre-emptively discredit - is an entirely different thing. How is a population supposed to respect law enforcement and the courts when the President is telling them that those institutions are corrupt?

(ETA: Also - and don't know how I overlooked this - his attacks on the press, labelling anything that he doens't like as "fake news", and relying on Fox News as a principal source of fact, leading to a symbiotic relationship between him and Fox bordering on Fox becoming a quasi-government news outlet).

He claims to be the great deal maker, but the reality is that for him a deal is a means to break an opponent. I think he is very much of the zero sum game when it comes to deals: there's a winner and a loser. A deal in which both sides win is, to him, a deal in which he loses. Because to him if the other guy is doing well out of the deal, Trump could have done better. So collaborative or collegiate decision making isn't his style. The deal making skill he boasts of isn't a skill that he can deploy to run a government, because intrinsically in his hands that skill is one that is antithetical to the smooth running of a government.

And finally, a reference back to yesterday's quote from the West Wing: "I'm the President of the United States, not the President of the people who agree with me". Well that couldn't be more wrong for Trump. I think he genuinely doesn't care about trying to appeal to the people who don't agree with him. And worse, he will try to demonise or denigrate them in order to whip up his own base further.

So for myself I think it perfectly legitimate to say that Trump has authoritarian tendencies which are far more in keeping with (but for now more moderate than, and not given full rein) those of genuine dictators. Whether Trump would ever be allowed to exercise the sort of autonomy that I suspect he naturally prefers is very questionable. But that's more to do with what's surrounding him than it is to do with him. And yes, I think the US has moved increasingly from the white end to the black end of the spectrum, and that it's closer to the black end than it's ever been.


*I'll caveat that with creditors. Ultimately his companies' creditors put some of his companies into bankruptcy. But he has a well documented habit of screwing over smaller creditors by no paying them and then burying them with spurious counterclaims if they dare sue to be paid. And he has an equally well documented way of borrowing sufficiently large sums from banks that can lead to him, rather than the bank, having the whip hand in negotiations (see Deutsche Bank, forex).

Edited by anonymous-user on Tuesday 26th June 10:21

[Old Man Fred]

esxste said:

Old Man Fred said:

I don't think anyone is saying it is nailed on to happen, just that there is a possibility it will happen.

Ignoring this just shows how far Trumps lies have swayed his supporters in that they are making up 'facts' to try and support their case

Yes... that's why I said:

esxste said:

Others have a different opinion, and see it is a horrifying possibility.

I wasn't clear, me saying it wasn't nailed on was in response to elk who appears to be suggesting that everyone has said it is a done deal that Trump will turn into Hitler

The fact that the possibility is so horrifying is why i think some people don't believe it will ever happen and can't even entertain that thought

[esxste]

Greg66 said:

Well, no, that's right. Were Trump to become a dictator, he'd be his own sort of dictator.

Much of the time the two sides of this discussion seem to me not to engage. One side is saying: "here's a spectrum from white to black. We are moving increasingly from the white end to the black end, and we're closer to the black end than we've ever been". Whereas the other side is saying "We're not at the black end".

Both sides are right, but that's not really the point.

As Eric says, the dismantling of a democracy takes time. Look at what Erdogan has done in Turkey. It's taken him the best part of 15 years, and he's not finished yet.

As I see it, the concerns that people have about Trump are based (legitimately, I think) on his approach to power. Throughout his business career he hasn't had to answer to anyone*. He's not had stockholders questioning his running of the company. On the contrary: his company, his rules, his say so. Automony is his thing.

Then look at who he says openly he admires. Putin. KYU. Xi. Erdogan. People who are the focus of a huge amount of power, and who are essentially answerable to no one. That's where by instinct it looks like Trump would like to be.

Then look at how he likes to run things. His preference is Executive Orders. No doubt because that's something he can get done without having to get bogged down in dealing with other people. Just like he would have done when running his business.

And then look at how he positively undermines the FBI and the Justice Department, calling them "corrupt", "crooked" and so on. Ditto judges in the early days of the challenges to the travel ban EO. Having a President positively undermining the integrity of some fundamental organs of a democracy is extraordinary. I have no issue with him challenging findings or decisions that go against him, but to allege that the institutions themselves are corrupt - before any findings have been made, so as to pre-emptively discredit - is an entirely different thing. How is a population supposed to respect law enforcement and the courts when the President is telling them that those institutions are corrupt?

He claims to be the great deal maker, but the reality is that for him a deal is a means to break an opponent. I think he is very much of the zero sum game when it comes to deals: there's a winner and a loser. A deal in which both sides win is, to him, a deal in which he loses. Because to him if the other guy is doing well out of the deal, Trump could have done better. So collaborative or collegiate decision making isn't his style. The deal making skill he boasts of isn't a skill that he can deploy to run a government, because intrinsically in his hands that skill is one that is antithetical to the smooth running of a government.

And finally, a reference back to yesterday's quote from the West Wing: "I'm the President of the United States, not the President of the people who agree with me". Well that couldn't be more wrong for Trump. I think he genuinely doesn't care about trying to appeal to the people who don't agree with him. And worse, he will try to demonise or denigrate them in order to whip up his own base further.

So for myself I think it perfectly legitimate to say that Trump has authoritarian tendencies which are far more in keeping with (but for now more moderate than, and not given full rein) those of genuine dictators. Whether Trump would ever be allowed to exercise the sort of autonomy that I suspect he naturally prefers is very questionable. But that's more to do with what's surrounding him than it is to do with him. And yes, I think the US has moved increasingly from the white end to the black end of the spectrum, and that it's closer to the black end than it's ever been.


*I'll caveat that with creditors. Ultimately his companies' creditors put some of his companies into bankruptcy. But he has a well documented habit of screwing over smaller creditors by no paying them and then burying them with spurious counterclaims if they dare sue to be paid. And he has an equally well documented way of borrowing sufficiently large sums from banks that can lead to him, rather than the bank, having the whip hand in negotiations (see Deutsche Bank, forex).

Excellent post.

Trump is for sure one of those people who believe that it is not enough to just win; everyone else has to lose too.

[Gameface]

Greg66 said:

Lots of stuff

Good post

(Others please take note).

[IJB1959]

esxste said:

I wonder if anyone said about Pol Pot that he cannot ever become Stalin. Assuming you're not a pedant who means that Trump literally cannot shapeshift into Hitler, you're touting opinion as fact. In your opinion, Trump cannot become a dictator. Others have a different opinion, and see it is a horrifying possibility.

People are worried by the actions that Trump has taken so far are undermining and devaluing Americas democratic institutions.

For example, his attack on the majority of the american media as "Fake News". A democratic (small 'd') president with genuine concerns about the media would set up an independent and impartial inquiry to investigate and report. Trump is calling anything that doesn't favor him as fake news while he pumps out mis-truths and misinformation that one particular news network treats as gospel truth.

Another example is his very public attacks on the FBI and the Justice Department. He publicly asserts there is corruption in the ranks at the FBI and Justice Department. This undermines public trust in the existing establishments of law and order. The danger of a significant proportion of the population distrusting the organisations set up to defend democracy can not be understated.

There are investigations ongoing into the handling of certain cases; a democratic (again small 'd') president would not be publicly calling the FBI corrupt. They would not be commenting on the people involved in the cases. they'd sit back and let the democratic system resolve the issues.

It's not hysterical to point the dangers out.

Edited by esxste on Tuesday 26th June 10:00

Where Trump has been (or still is) corrupt, he discredits all the institutions (and individual people) that could possibly hold him to account, therefore casting doubt that any investigation is actually credible, and is a devious way to avoid ever being properly 'and fairly' investigated in his view.

This type of leadership in undermining law and order for your own ego and political gain is very dangerous & irresponsible for the future of the US.

[Blackpuddin]

Gameface said:

Eric Mc said:

I think the thread is deviating well away from its original purpose - which is to discuss the merits or otherwise of President Trump.

At the moment, there are far too many postings about the merits (or otherwise) of the posters.

Been a st week on this thread.

Keep coming back to this thread in hopes that the ridiculous argy-bargy might have died down, but despite efforts by the mods it seems that some 'clever' (sic) people are determined to keep slinging mud around.

[IJB1959]

Blackpuddin said:

Gameface said:

Eric Mc said:

I think the thread is deviating well away from its original purpose - which is to discuss the merits or otherwise of President Trump.

At the moment, there are far too many postings about the merits (or otherwise) of the posters.

Been a st week on this thread.

Keep coming back to this thread in hopes that the ridiculous argy-bargy might have died down, but despite efforts by the mods it seems that some 'clever' (sic) people are determined to keep slinging mud around.

This happens on most threads on PH. Some people just cannot handle another point of view, or are too quick to 'fact check' and then personally insult if a post reply is not accurate, contradicts, or even disagrees with their opinion. Sadly, it will never change.

[Halb]

Eric Mc said:

I think the thread is deviating well away from its original purpose - which is to discuss the merits or otherwise of President Trump.
.

it's all getting a tad westworld, I don't know who is a host and who is a human