45th President of the United States, Donald Trump. (Vol 4)

[The Dangerous Elk]

Old Man Fred said:

I wasn't clear, me saying it wasn't nailed on was in response to elk who appears to be suggesting that everyone has said it is a done deal that Trump will turn into Hitler

The fact that the possibility is so horrifying is why i think some people don't believe it will ever happen and can't even entertain that thought

There is zero possibility that Trump will turn into a "Usa Hitler", the Constitution & legal system prevents it, it is surprisingly robust.

[Eric Mc]

Gameface said:

Greg66 said:

Lots of stuff

Good post

(Others please take note).

Agreed - all very well made points and succinctly put.

[Eric Mc]

The Dangerous Elk said:

There is zero possibility that Trump will turn into a "Usa Hitler", the Constitution & legal system prevents it, it is surprisingly robust.

I hope to God you are right.

[raftom]

Hannah Arendt said:

In an ever-changing, incomprehensible world the masses had reached the point where they would, at the same time, believe everything and nothing, think that everything was possible and that nothing was true. ... Mass propaganda discovered that its audience was ready at all times to believe the worst, no matter how absurd, and did not particularly object to being deceived because it held every statement to be a lie anyhow. The totalitarian mass leaders based their propaganda on the correct psychological assumption that, under such conditions, one could make people believe the most fantastic statements one day, and trust that if the next day they were given irrefutable proof of their falsehood, they would take refuge in cynicism; instead of deserting the leaders who had lied to them, they would protest that they had known all along that the statement was a lie and would admire the leaders for their superior tactical cleverness.

Hannah Arendt, The Origins of Totalitarianism (1951)

The original 4D chess.

[captain_cynic]

The Dangerous Elk said:

There is zero possibility that Trump will turn into a "Usa Hitler", the Constitution & legal system prevents it, it is surprisingly robust.

Anyone else remember when GWB said the constitution was "Just a piece of paper".

The decent into dictatorship is surprisingly easy... All you need to do is tell the people they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for their lack of patriotism. Any right can be suspended if people are scared or stupid enough.

It is always commented by Americans, that Australia has no bill of rights because Americans don't understand anything outside their own context. Any right, no matter how well documented is ultimately protected by people. A constitution is no guarantee against an executive that will bypass a legal system or a legal system that can be subject to political interference is no protection either (remember, the Prez can appoint judges to the Supreme Court).

The only thing defending America from descending into a despotism, is Americans waking up and realising they're being played.

[The Dangerous Elk]

captain_cynic said:

Anyone else remember when GWB said the constitution was "Just a piece of paper".

The decent into dictatorship is surprisingly easy... All you need to do is tell the people they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for their lack of patriotism. Any right can be suspended if people are scared or stupid enough.

Really ?, just how would you do that in the USA today then ?

We are not talking 1930's post monarchial society when we discuss the Usa. The Usa is one of the longest-running democracy, there is a reason it has not descended into a dictatorship. The strength of its constitution is more powerful today than ever.

Edited by The Dangerous Elk on Tuesday 26th June 12:09

Edited by The Dangerous Elk on Tuesday 26th June 12:10

[Countdown]

The Dangerous Elk said:

There is zero possibility that Trump will turn into a "Usa Hitler", the Constitution & legal system prevents it, it is surprisingly robust.

..which would explain why Donald is getting frustrated at the Constitution

He's unlikely to be a hitler though, he's not competent or coherent enough.

Mind you, that's what i thought about him becoming POTUS so you never know,

[Jockman]

captain_cynic said:

Anyone else remember when GWB said the constitution was "Just a piece of paper".......

The only thing defending America from descending into a despotism, is Americans waking up and realising they're being played.

GWB also said “Our enemies are innovative and resourceful, and so are we. They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we.”

Yo Blair.

To descend into despotism the state would need to take control of media outlets. Look at Putin. Look at Erdogens 15 hours of opposition air time to his 181 hours of pre election air time.

Can’t really see that happening, can you?

[Tampon]

Ok piss take hat off for a second.

I think people who do not support trump in any way what so ever are getting confused with the holocaust and the rise of fascism. Hitler didn't kill millions of people. People who followed him did out of fear or out of belief. Belief they would have power, would mean something, were superior,were loved and special, were not to blame, other were at fault etc

One can lead to the other.

One doesn't mean the other will happen.

One happens to some extent quite often in the world, the other is luckily limited in it occurrence in the world.

Comparing the rise of fascism in America to the rise of fascism in Germany is acceptable. It is relevant and it is happening (to what extent is debatable if you so wish). The parallels with it in Germany are very compelling. That is the thing with fascism, it is the same ideology no matter where you are, just wears a slightly different dress dependent on where you are.

Trump unfortunately also has personal ties with the far right, through his family, reported reading materials, court cases and his public support of fascists.

Will it lead to to millions being killed, I very much doubt it but it is amazing how quickly we have gone from the leader of the free world trying to give people free heathcare to what is occurring right now.

Our safe little space we all inhabit (that's you lot too Coyft, Frankenstein, areout and mildly angry Elk) are held together by some paper thin agreements of basic rules and customs. It doesn't take much to rip that paper.

Any way I am not talking seriously to silly people so back with the pisstaking.

Edited by Tampon on Tuesday 26th June 12:38

[Eric Mc]

I think Trump knows that seizing control of and/or shutting down unsympathetic media organisations is not something that can be done easily, if at all, in the US. However, he is employing another tactic, which is to discredit what they write and what they say - hence his constant use of phrases such as "failing New York Times, failing Washington Post, Fake CNN, Fake News" etc.

If you bang on and on and on in such a manner, there will be those who will believe that these organs ARE fake and untrustworthy.

The net effect would be just the same as shutting them down. They might as well shut down if they can't exert influence.

I am hopeful that these attempts to destroy a free press in the US will ultimately fail - but I am concerned.

[Jockman]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

So Trump controls the media as Putin does?

[anonymous-user]

Jockman said:

To descend into despotism the state would need to take control of media outlets. Look at Putin. Look at Erdogens 15 hours of opposition air time to his 181 hours of pre election air time.

Can’t really see that happening, can you?

ISTR that Trump has tweeted (rhetorically, perhaps) that "fake news" outlets should have their broadcast licences removed.

I don't think he'd go anywhere near this far, but his approach to the problem (or rather Bannon's, since I'm certain it's his idea) is different. It's not to shut down opposing media outlets, or assert control of the media as a whole; it's to discredit those media outlets that aren't friendly to him and to praise those that are.

[The Dangerous Elk]

Eric Mc said:

I think Trump knows that seizing control of and/or shutting down unsympathetic media organisations is not something that can be done easily, if at all, in the US. However, he is employing another tactic, which is to discredit what they write and what they say - hence his constant use of phrases such as "failing New York Times, failing Washington Post, Fake CNN, Fake News" etc.

If you bang on and on and on in such a manner, there will be those who will believe that these organs ARE fake and untrustworthy.

The net effect would be just the same as shutting them down. They might as well shut down if they can't exert influence.

I am hopeful that these attempts to destroy a free press in the US will ultimately fail - but I am concerned.

Errrr...........for example and allow you to stop panicking.

There are more papers sold and words read in the Usa today than for years and years. I would guess that 90% of those are anti-trump.

[Jockman]

Eric Mc said:

I think Trump knows that seizing control of and/or shutting down unsympathetic media organisations is not something that can be done easily, if at all, in the US. However, he is employing another tactic, which is to discredit what they write and what they say - hence his constant use of phrases such as "failing New York Times, failing Washington Post, Fake CNN, Fake News" etc.

If you bang on and on and on in such a manner, there will be those who will believe that these organs ARE fake and untrustworthy.

The net effect would be just the same as shutting them down. They might as well shut down if they can't exert influence.

I am hopeful that these attempts to destroy a free press in the US will ultimately fail - but I am concerned.

Yup, not much wrong here.

I’m confident checks and balances will prevail.

[Eric Mc]

The Dangerous Elk said:

There are more papers sold and words read in the Usa today than for years and years. I would guess that 90% of those are anti-trump.

Which pretty much proves conclusively that Trump is talking utter bks.

It is a good sign that the very fact that when Trump attacks the media , the media benefits.

[roachcoach]

Jockman said:

I’m confident checks and balances will prevail.

I agree, although that being said I'd have expected them to have exerted some pressure before this point with past presidents. If only to make it easier for the republicans to carry agendas through, not be under so much pressure in local elections.

Perhaps not even necessarily in public but a word behind closed doors.

We're definitely in unknown waters, though the trade wars are furrowing some brows of the congress-critters.

[Jockman]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

He will run out of time. It’s as simple as that.

The 2 leaders I’ve quoted in relation to despotism display many common features, others exist too. The primary commonality is that they ensure they have longevity to succeed, whether that is by fundamentally altering the system or the more blunt method of detention, military power, subjugation etc.

Can’t see that happening in modern day America.

[The Dangerous Elk]

Eric Mc said:

Which pretty much proves conclusively that Trump is talking utter bks.

It is a good sign that the very fact that when Trump attacks the media , the media benefits.

It proves nothing other than he cannot ever be a Usa Hitler

The concern I have is more long term, it is the amount of polarity developing (and encouraged by the media & politicians) which could lead to a kneejerk reaction in the type of person who takes over from him. If there is a wholesale avoidance of the reasons for Trump even obtaining many many millions of votes then the polarisation within society will get an order of magnitude worse.

Trump as a person was not the main reason many of those millions voted for him. (please exclude nut jobs on both sides from my generalisations)

[Old Man Fred]

The Dangerous Elk said:

There are more papers sold and words read in the Usa today than for years and years.

A Pew Research Center analysis of data from AAM shows that total weekday circulation for U.S. daily newspapers – both print and digital – fell 8% in 2016, marking the 28th consecutive year of declines.

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/06/01/ci...

i don't have personal knowledge of the quality of the source but falling for 28 years in a row sounds fairly irrefutable

[Jockman]

roachcoach said:

We're definitely in unknown waters, though the trade wars are furrowing some brows of the congress-critters.

Stock markets were used early doors as a barometer of success.

I’m not following them too closely at the moment but I’m told they are looking a wee bit jittery in relation to your point.