Miami school shooting

[AJL308]

Gary C said:

AJL308 said:

Efbe said:

What does it matter?
The US has clearly misinterpreted the 2A to mean everyone has a right to bear arms, ignoring that this should be to support a militia.

And you are ignoring the fact that the 'militia' essentially comprises everyone.

And the states really needs one ?

Doesn't matter what it needs. That is the Constitution - which was the whole point of the discussion.

[Efbe]

The National Guard is the militia of the United States.
More here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Guard_of_th...

[rscott]

p1stonhead said:

Problem solved for the little kiddies!

https://youtu.be/HlGpaZieHwk

So when little Jimmy knocks on the door and shouts "please let me in, there's someone out here with a gun" does the teacher open the door and let little Jimmy shoot them all?

[DurianIceCream]

^ You could ask the same about any situation where groups of people seek shelter from armed marauders. Including in the London Bridge knife attacks. What did people who locked themselves inside do?

[rscott]

DurianIceCream said:

^ You could ask the same about any situation where groups of people seek shelter from armed marauders. Including in the London Bridge knife attacks. What did people who locked themselves inside do?

Not really equivalent situations though. In what world is the answer to gun violence in schools "build a panic room"? The reaction to the London Bridge attacks is to increase security and try to prevent the attack starting, not buy a stack of stab vests and issue to customers during an attack.

[Efbe]

rscott said:

p1stonhead said:

Problem solved for the little kiddies!

https://youtu.be/HlGpaZieHwk

So when little Jimmy knocks on the door and shouts "please let me in, there's someone out here with a gun" does the teacher open the door and let little Jimmy shoot them all?

two things on the panic rooms.

Surely with all the guns etc available in the states there will be something that can get through this, or even just smoke through the vents?

I think someone may have mentioned before, why not just put a bullet proof door on the room?

[red_slr]

Something is better than nothing. Also to get through steel plate your average .223 or even .308 wont even put a dent in it.

[Gary C]

AJL308 said:

Gary C said:

AJL308 said:

Efbe said:

What does it matter?
The US has clearly misinterpreted the 2A to mean everyone has a right to bear arms, ignoring that this should be to support a militia.

And you are ignoring the fact that the 'militia' essentially comprises everyone.

And the states really needs one ?

Doesn't matter what it needs. That is the Constitution - which was the whole point of the discussion.

So I can't ask a pertinent question ? And just because it's in the constitution, does that mean it can't be changes, like, maybe some sort of amendment ?

[DurianIceCream]

"The Constitution provides that an amendment may be proposed either by the Congress with a two-thirds majority vote in both the House of Representatives and the Senate or by a constitutional convention called for by two-thirds of the State legislatures. None of the 27 amendments to the Constitution have been proposed by constitutional convention. The Congress proposes an amendment in the form of a joint resolution. Since the President does not have a constitutional role in the amendment process, the joint resolution does not go to the White House for signature or approval. The original document is forwarded directly to NARA's Office of the Federal Register (OFR) for processing and publication. The OFR adds legislative history notes to the joint resolution and publishes it in slip law format. The OFR also assembles an information package for the States which includes formal "red-line" copies of the joint resolution, copies of the joint resolution in slip law format, and the statutory procedure for ratification under 1 U.S.C. 106b."

[DurianIceCream]

Efbe said:

two things on the panic rooms.

Surely with all the guns etc available in the states there will be something that can get through this, or even just smoke through the vents?

I think someone may have mentioned before, why not just put a bullet proof door on the room?

Classroom probably has windows. Classroom probably has drywall walls. Neither of which are bullet proof. They could be used on a case-by-case basis assuming an assessment of the building structure. Glass to stop a rifle bullet would need to be very thick.

The safe room would work exceptionally well at stopping every conceivable type of bullet used in a school shooting. This of course ignores that the whole need for a safe room is pretty fked up to start with.

[bstb3]

Gary C said:

So I can't ask a pertinent question ? And just because it's in the constitution, does that mean it can't be changes, like, maybe some sort of amendment ?

Oh it can be changed, provided you can get enough support (2/3) for the change in the various houses of government. Of course, given the views of a large part of gun loving America that would require the elected representatives to go against a lot of voters wishes, as well as the paymasters of the NRA and other associated lobby groups, so good luck with that.

Then there is the problem of what to do when you have changed it. The owners of (currently) legally held guns aren't just going to hand them back in, certainly not all of them, so how do you get them? Any attempt to do so by force is likely to be met at times by people quoting the original second amendment, how this is an example of exactly why it's needed, followed by a hail of bullets.

The constitution is a smokescreen - too many people love having guns, too many people aren't responsible enough with them and there are enough mentally disturbed people with grudges that have access to them. Shootings like these become an inevitable outcome. America has to fall out of love with guns on a wide scale before any constitutional reform is going to make a realistic difference - and that's generations away. Just look at the entertainment industry - a lot of people get on the anti gun bandwagon after each tragedy, but you know the next raft of movies, games and rappers are going to be glorifying & glamorising guns yet again.

In the meantime looking at preventative measures (better mental health screening, security at schools, trying to stop the modifications of weapons to full auto etc) is probably, and sadly, the most effective thing that can be done (imo).

[Ayahuasca]

DurianIceCream said:

"The Constitution provides that an amendment may be proposed either by the Congress with a two-thirds majority vote in both the House of Representatives and the Senate or by a constitutional convention called for by two-thirds of the State legislatures. None of the 27 amendments to the Constitution have been proposed by constitutional convention. The Congress proposes an amendment in the form of a joint resolution. Since the President does not have a constitutional role in the amendment process, the joint resolution does not go to the White House for signature or approval. The original document is forwarded directly to NARA's Office of the Federal Register (OFR) for processing and publication. The OFR adds legislative history notes to the joint resolution and publishes it in slip law format. The OFR also assembles an information package for the States which includes formal "red-line" copies of the joint resolution, copies of the joint resolution in slip law format, and the statutory procedure for ratification under 1 U.S.C. 106b."

So a change needs a 2/3 majority in the HoR and Senate. What is the current support for an amendment in the House and Senate?

[aeropilot]

AJL308 said:

What went 'wrong' is US society as a whole. It's not just guns, it's Americans with guns. Lots of places have similar levels of gun ownership but don't have the same problems that the USA does.

The USA is culturally fked up, there seems to be little respect for each other and taking the piss and putting down those seen as less popular seem to be national pastimes. When you have that sort of culture coupled with a crap healthcare system, especially as far as mental health is concerned, then who do you expect? This is the USA's problem though and they seem to be doing sod all to address it.

Exactly.

But, not easy to do something about it, as you also have to remember, its really not the United States of America, it should more accurately be called the Ununited States of America, as every state is almost a self contained country within a country in terms of laws, regulations and what not, let alone health care (or lack of) etc.

[Russian Troll Bot]

9 year old shoots his 13 year old sister dead after an argument about a video game controller

https://edition.cnn.com/2018/03/19/us/boy-shot-sis...


The problem here is obvious. If children weren't allowed to play video games, there wouldn't have been a controller to argue over in the first place. I am glad they are bringing in tighter restrictions.

[KTF]

No, no, no. You meant that if the other child also had a gun then they could have stopped it. Likewise the parent as if everyone is armed then this sort of thing doesn't happen.

[Efbe]

DurianIceCream said:

Classroom probably has windows. Classroom probably has drywall walls. Neither of which are bullet proof. They could be used on a case-by-case basis assuming an assessment of the building structure. Glass to stop a rifle bullet would need to be very thick.

The safe room would work exceptionally well at stopping every conceivable type of bullet used in a school shooting. This of course ignores that the whole need for a safe room is pretty fked up to start with.

good points.

It is fked up. should be arming the children instead really.

[frankenstein12]

Russian Troll Bot said:

9 year old shoots his 13 year old sister dead after an argument about a video game controller

https://edition.cnn.com/2018/03/19/us/boy-shot-sis...


The problem here is obvious. If children weren't allowed to play video games, there wouldn't have been a controller to argue over in the first place. I am glad they are bringing in tighter restrictions.

No the problem here is that the parents should be made an example of to make Americans aware of the risks of being a stupid fk. Who keeps a loaded gun in an unlocked bedside table?? Especially when there are kids around. How monumentally stupid do you have to be???

As said my dad had a gun in the house when i was 15. It was ALWAYS kept locked in a safe and if it wasnt in the safe it was always on or near him where he could make sure nobody else could touch it. Common sense.

Frankly stories like this make me think the parents not only should be spending a long time in jail I also think they should be sterilised so they dont sully the gene pool anymore.

[jmorgan]

Large protest marches this weekend then.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/march-for-our...

Quite a turn out. Can they keep it up.

[Derek Smith]

jmorgan said:

Large protest marches this weekend then.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/march-for-our...

Quite a turn out. Can they keep it up.

It will have no effect. I have policed a number of such demonstrations, nothing anywhere near so large, in this country on another cause of avoidable deaths. They too had no effect.

I can understand the sentiments behind the posts which are along the line of: 'why don't they just', and indeed I can see the logic. But perhaps why they don't can be shown by simple comparisons.

Whilst figures are in dispute, most of it is in detail. My figures can be challenged, and successfully no doubt, but mine can be supported as ballpark. My maths might be wrong though.

10,000+ pa firearms related deaths in the USA. That's excluding suicides and accidental shootings. A population of 325m gives around 30 deaths per million. This is shocking. It is not entirely preventable, but other countries seem to manage it better. We can point to the USA and say that they are a weird lot to allow this massacre to continue.

Their defence of arming the nation is illogical and amounts to a misinterpretation of the constitution. Also the NRA is a major funder of influential politicians.

In the UK as a whole there are 8000+ pa deaths related directly to alcohol. Again, the figures are argued over, but these are generally 'accepted'. The figures for those who think they are too high are too high. A population of 65m gives us a death rate of 123dpm. That's over four times the rate of firearms related deaths in the USA.

I'm not arguing for a ban, or trying to condemn; all I'm suggesting is that the situations are similar.

[Cotty]

New solution to school shootings is to put buckets of rocks in classrooms, so students can throw rocks at someone with an assault rifle. Seems fair.
https://edition.cnn.com/2018/03/24/us/pennsylvania...