Miami school shooting
Discussion
A girl from the school who knew the shooter calls out Trump https://youtu.be/ZxD3o-9H1lY
A clip of this was getting shared on twitter lastnight, this is the whole thing.
A clip of this was getting shared on twitter lastnight, this is the whole thing.
DurianIceCream said:
California or NY State style laws applied countrywide might be achievable with a lot of luck and a lot of effort.
The California laws (apart form the 'assault weapon' nonsense) are pretty sensible. Background checks, safety certificate etc.The problems are that it's doubtful that such laws nationwide would stop a nutter getting a gun in a country which already has so many. Also the majority of NRA members, people who do a bit of target shooting on a range, shoot clay pigeons, have a handgun at home because they feel safer, would still be able to have guns under such rules.
While the stated purpose of those who want tightened regulation is to deal with these so called 'gun nuts' or 'gun fetishists'. The US anti gun lobby wants a situation like the UK where even the Olympic pistol squad is prevented from practising in case they spontaneously decide to shoot up the local school, while drug dealers and gangsters seem to get whatever pistols they want.
Short term will not work here, all talk of throwing away guns n all, has to be a long term approach and that will also need the amendment amending. I am sure that a long tern approach could make inroads but a generation perhaps two to get it done. Maybe the new voters will have more say in the coming years.
Around 30000 people a year in the us are killed on the roads. A similar amount that are killed by guns.
Now I fully understand guns have only one real use where as cars are a useful tool.
But having said that if a alternative is found (driverless cars) and the government then turns around and says you can't have your cars anymore. Lots of people will just go fine it's just a car a bit of metal doesn't bother me. But lots of other people and being a motoring site I expect lots on here wont be happy and see cars as much more than just a bit of metal.
It represents freedom a choose a way of life for many, cars can be far more than just a tool for getting you from A to B.
Guns are the same in America they are more than just a bits of metal. And in the same way as people who aren't car nuts cant understand the obsession with cars it's the same with guns.
Its exactly like that person who says "why are you cleaning your car again? How much have you spent on that? You are a sad weirdo it's just a car".
Now I fully understand guns have only one real use where as cars are a useful tool.
But having said that if a alternative is found (driverless cars) and the government then turns around and says you can't have your cars anymore. Lots of people will just go fine it's just a car a bit of metal doesn't bother me. But lots of other people and being a motoring site I expect lots on here wont be happy and see cars as much more than just a bit of metal.
It represents freedom a choose a way of life for many, cars can be far more than just a tool for getting you from A to B.
Guns are the same in America they are more than just a bits of metal. And in the same way as people who aren't car nuts cant understand the obsession with cars it's the same with guns.
Its exactly like that person who says "why are you cleaning your car again? How much have you spent on that? You are a sad weirdo it's just a car".
Dr Jekyll said:
The US anti gun lobby wants a situation like the UK where even the Olympic pistol squad is prevented from practising in case they spontaneously decide to shoot up the local school, while drug dealers and gangsters seem to get whatever pistols they want.
Whereas the stated aim of the pro-gun lobby is that every American, regardless of mental health, will be able to buy enough guns to assault a school. I think the loss of a competitive British pistol shooting team is a price worth paying to decrease the risk of kids being shot. Are you willing to go up to the kids in Florida and say "well at least you might get a silver in Tokyo?"
The USA couldn't even pass a law to ban bump stocks which turn non auto weapons into proxy full autos so i have no expectation anything will change!
DurianIceCream said:
If people are going to talk about gun control in the United States, talk about what could be achievable with a lot of luck and a lot of effort. Talking about banning guns, confiscating guns and jailing gun owners who won't hand them in is not realistic. It is about as realistic as you saying you will run for PM and cut NHS costs by 50% while improving care, reducing ill health and improving life expectancy. It just ain't gonna happen and you make yourself look like you have no idea at all.
California or NY State style laws applied countrywide might be achievable with a lot of luck and a lot of effort.
If you want to start talk about confiscating large numbers of guns and jailing gun owners, go find a strong gale and piss into it.
You've inadvertently proven my point. The steps I outlined are possible, but a large part of it will never happen because "muh guns" and "muh rights". Therefore the only thing to do is to remove the rights.California or NY State style laws applied countrywide might be achievable with a lot of luck and a lot of effort.
If you want to start talk about confiscating large numbers of guns and jailing gun owners, go find a strong gale and piss into it.
The only people who look like they have no idea at all are the NRA and other anti gun-control nuts.
I am a shotgun owner in the UK so please don't think I am anti-gun. I am anti nutters having guns and anti a society where gun ownership is a right and not a privilege.
Edited by Tankrizzo on Sunday 18th February 09:57
iwantagta said:
Whereas the stated aim of the pro-gun lobby is that every American, regardless of mental health, will be able to buy enough guns to assault a school.
How many guns do you need to assault a school? When have the NRA ever advocated assaults at schools?iwantagta said:
I think the loss of a competitive British pistol shooting team is a price worth paying to decrease the risk of kids being shot. Are you willing to go up to the kids in Florida and say "well at least you might get a silver in Tokyo?"
By what mechanism does preventing an Olympic team having pistols make it difficult for a nutter to shoot kids?iwantagta said:
The USA couldn't even pass a law to ban bump stocks which turn non auto weapons into proxy full autos
You can't blame the gun lobby for that, the NRA lobbied for such regulations.Dr Jekyll said:
Stuff in reply to stuff
I was being facetious adding the "school" bit - pro gun lobby regularly campaign to stop background checks of any flavour - other than criminal usually. re Olympics; Its the pro gun UK lobby saying that our gun legislation has affected our ability to get medals. If relaxing our guns laws allows easier training but increases the number of guns available to the general public - i don't think that is a price worth paying.
The NRA did agree to a bump stock ban - but then said it should actually come through the ATF & not congress, which killed it.
Not-The-Messiah said:
Around 30000 people a year in the us are killed on the roads. A similar amount that are killed by guns.
Now I fully understand guns have only one real use where as cars are a useful tool.
But having said that if a alternative is found (driverless cars) and the government then turns around and says you can't have your cars anymore. Lots of people will just go fine it's just a car a bit of metal doesn't bother me. But lots of other people and being a motoring site I expect lots on here wont be happy and see cars as much more than just a bit of metal.
It represents freedom a choose a way of life for many, cars can be far more than just a tool for getting you from A to B.
Guns are the same in America they are more than just a bits of metal. And in the same way as people who aren't car nuts cant understand the obsession with cars it's the same with guns.
Its exactly like that person who says "why are you cleaning your car again? How much have you spent on that? You are a sad weirdo it's just a car".
This - https://www.cbsnews.com/news/how-u-s-gun-deaths-co... - provides a sobering view of gun related deaths in the US compared to other countries.Now I fully understand guns have only one real use where as cars are a useful tool.
But having said that if a alternative is found (driverless cars) and the government then turns around and says you can't have your cars anymore. Lots of people will just go fine it's just a car a bit of metal doesn't bother me. But lots of other people and being a motoring site I expect lots on here wont be happy and see cars as much more than just a bit of metal.
It represents freedom a choose a way of life for many, cars can be far more than just a tool for getting you from A to B.
Guns are the same in America they are more than just a bits of metal. And in the same way as people who aren't car nuts cant understand the obsession with cars it's the same with guns.
Its exactly like that person who says "why are you cleaning your car again? How much have you spent on that? You are a sad weirdo it's just a car".
As a simple comparison though, you mention that gun deaths and auto deaths are appoximately the same in the US. In the UK, gun deaths are roughly equivalent to deaths due to farm machinery. That clearly illustrates the massive difference in likeliihood between the 2 countries.
Not-The-Messiah said:
Around 30000 people a year in the us are killed on the roads. A similar amount that are killed by guns.
Now I fully understand guns have only one real use where as cars are a useful tool.
But having said that if a alternative is found (driverless cars) and the government then turns around and says you can't have your cars anymore. Lots of people will just go fine it's just a car a bit of metal doesn't bother me. But lots of other people and being a motoring site I expect lots on here wont be happy and see cars as much more than just a bit of metal.
It represents freedom a choose a way of life for many, cars can be far more than just a tool for getting you from A to B.
Guns are the same in America they are more than just a bits of metal. And in the same way as people who aren't car nuts cant understand the obsession with cars it's the same with guns.
Its exactly like that person who says "why are you cleaning your car again? How much have you spent on that? You are a sad weirdo it's just a car".
There needs to be a balance between “Freedoms” and “risks to others”. My “freedom” to store a tonne of Semtex in my garage should be judged against my neighbours’ “freedom” not to have a mini heart attack every time they hear a loud noise.Now I fully understand guns have only one real use where as cars are a useful tool.
But having said that if a alternative is found (driverless cars) and the government then turns around and says you can't have your cars anymore. Lots of people will just go fine it's just a car a bit of metal doesn't bother me. But lots of other people and being a motoring site I expect lots on here wont be happy and see cars as much more than just a bit of metal.
It represents freedom a choose a way of life for many, cars can be far more than just a tool for getting you from A to B.
Guns are the same in America they are more than just a bits of metal. And in the same way as people who aren't car nuts cant understand the obsession with cars it's the same with guns.
Its exactly like that person who says "why are you cleaning your car again? How much have you spent on that? You are a sad weirdo it's just a car".
rscott said:
This - https://www.cbsnews.com/news/how-u-s-gun-deaths-co... - provides a sobering view of gun related deaths in the US compared to other countries.
As a simple comparison though, you mention that gun deaths and auto deaths are appoximately the same in the US. In the UK, gun deaths are roughly equivalent to deaths due to farm machinery. That clearly illustrates the massive difference in likeliihood between the 2 countries.
It's interesting looking at the non-firearm homicide rate which is also much higher than the UK.As a simple comparison though, you mention that gun deaths and auto deaths are appoximately the same in the US. In the UK, gun deaths are roughly equivalent to deaths due to farm machinery. That clearly illustrates the massive difference in likeliihood between the 2 countries.
The overall homicide rate in the US is over 17 times higher than the UK. That's a pretty shocking statistic.
Edited by Moonhawk on Sunday 18th February 12:03
Severe restriction on ammunition might be the only way forward. Yes you can have your gun at home for self defence, but you can only have a few rounds, and each round costs $5000 to buy/replace outside of a controlled shooting range.
30 rounds for your AR15 at the range will cost you 10 bucks as long as they are are all fired at the range.
30 rounds for your AR15 to take home.... sure, 15 thousand dollars please...... use them in home defence against a bad guy, free replacement.
Can't think of anyway else to both control and limit firearm usage and yet still let allow ownership and usage.
Anyone know how much ammo this kid used the other day? The guy in Houston fired over a thousand and still had plenty in reserve. He had so many rounds he bought multiple weapons to get around the issue of overheating and jamming.
30 rounds for your AR15 at the range will cost you 10 bucks as long as they are are all fired at the range.
30 rounds for your AR15 to take home.... sure, 15 thousand dollars please...... use them in home defence against a bad guy, free replacement.
Can't think of anyway else to both control and limit firearm usage and yet still let allow ownership and usage.
Anyone know how much ammo this kid used the other day? The guy in Houston fired over a thousand and still had plenty in reserve. He had so many rounds he bought multiple weapons to get around the issue of overheating and jamming.
Moonhawk said:
It's interesting looking at the non-firearm homicide rate which is also much higher than the UK.
The overall homicide rate in the US is over 17 times higher than the UK. That's a pretty shocking statistic.
In a country where you get full life terms in a secure max jail for certain crimes, or the death sentence in some states, you are more likely to escape justice by killing your victim than by leaving them alive. The overall homicide rate in the US is over 17 times higher than the UK. That's a pretty shocking statistic.
Edited by Moonhawk on Sunday 18th February 12:03
TTmonkey said:
Severe restriction on ammunition might be the only way forward. Yes you can have your gun at home for self defence, but you can only have a few rounds, and each round costs $5000 to buy/replace outside of a controlled shooting range.
30 rounds for your AR15 at the range will cost you 10 bucks as long as they are are all fired at the range.
30 rounds for your AR15 to take home.... sure, 15 thousand dollars please...... use them in home defence against a bad guy, free replacement.
Can't think of anyway else to both control and limit firearm usage and yet still let allow ownership and usage.
Anyone know how much ammo this kid used the other day? The guy in Houston fired over a thousand and still had plenty in reserve. He had so many rounds he bought multiple weapons to get around the issue of overheating and jamming.
Isnt that a Chris Rock sketch ?30 rounds for your AR15 at the range will cost you 10 bucks as long as they are are all fired at the range.
30 rounds for your AR15 to take home.... sure, 15 thousand dollars please...... use them in home defence against a bad guy, free replacement.
Can't think of anyway else to both control and limit firearm usage and yet still let allow ownership and usage.
Anyone know how much ammo this kid used the other day? The guy in Houston fired over a thousand and still had plenty in reserve. He had so many rounds he bought multiple weapons to get around the issue of overheating and jamming.
There's a major flaw in the argument that reducing gun ownership means only criminals have guns :
In the US, you can get tooled up and head off to commit an armed robbery, and you haven't broken any laws until you threaten someone with your gun and demand money.
In Australia, and most other civilised countries, you have committed a crime by carrying a loaded weapon in your car (even if you have a permit for it), and the police can arrrest you for that, before you threaten or shoot someone.
ps I know several keen hunters and one target pistol shooter - these hobbies are still legal, and not incompatible with gun control.
In the US, you can get tooled up and head off to commit an armed robbery, and you haven't broken any laws until you threaten someone with your gun and demand money.
In Australia, and most other civilised countries, you have committed a crime by carrying a loaded weapon in your car (even if you have a permit for it), and the police can arrrest you for that, before you threaten or shoot someone.
ps I know several keen hunters and one target pistol shooter - these hobbies are still legal, and not incompatible with gun control.
liner33 said:
TTmonkey said:
Severe restriction on ammunition might be the only way forward. Yes you can have your gun at home for self defence, but you can only have a few rounds, and each round costs $5000 to buy/replace outside of a controlled shooting range.
30 rounds for your AR15 at the range will cost you 10 bucks as long as they are are all fired at the range.
30 rounds for your AR15 to take home.... sure, 15 thousand dollars please...... use them in home defence against a bad guy, free replacement.
Can't think of anyway else to both control and limit firearm usage and yet still let allow ownership and usage.
Anyone know how much ammo this kid used the other day? The guy in Houston fired over a thousand and still had plenty in reserve. He had so many rounds he bought multiple weapons to get around the issue of overheating and jamming.
Isnt that a Chris Rock sketch ?30 rounds for your AR15 at the range will cost you 10 bucks as long as they are are all fired at the range.
30 rounds for your AR15 to take home.... sure, 15 thousand dollars please...... use them in home defence against a bad guy, free replacement.
Can't think of anyway else to both control and limit firearm usage and yet still let allow ownership and usage.
Anyone know how much ammo this kid used the other day? The guy in Houston fired over a thousand and still had plenty in reserve. He had so many rounds he bought multiple weapons to get around the issue of overheating and jamming.
AW111 said:
There's a major flaw in the argument that reducing gun ownership means only criminals have guns :
In the US, you can get tooled up and head off to commit an armed robbery, and you haven't broken any laws until you threaten someone with your gun and demand money.
In Australia, and most other civilised countries, you have committed a crime by carrying a loaded weapon in your car (even if you have a permit for it), and the police can arrrest you for that, before you threaten or shoot someone.
ps I know several keen hunters and one target pistol shooter - these hobbies are still legal, and not incompatible with gun control.
Switzerland has very high levels of gun ownership, doesn't require a license for single shot hunting weapons, yet has very low gun crime. It's also an offence to transport a loaded gun...In the US, you can get tooled up and head off to commit an armed robbery, and you haven't broken any laws until you threaten someone with your gun and demand money.
In Australia, and most other civilised countries, you have committed a crime by carrying a loaded weapon in your car (even if you have a permit for it), and the police can arrrest you for that, before you threaten or shoot someone.
ps I know several keen hunters and one target pistol shooter - these hobbies are still legal, and not incompatible with gun control.
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