Miami school shooting

[p1stonhead]

Dr Jekyll said:

La Liga said:

he UK police are exceptionally unlikely to face any serious firearms like an AR-15.

Why?

Because there aren’t any

And you know what I mean by ‘any’ in this context.

[anonymous-user]

Dr Jekyll said:

La Liga said:

he UK police are exceptionally unlikely to face any serious firearms like an AR-15.

Why?

As above, lack of availability / access.

[Russian Troll Bot]

Soliders can go through years of training but crack the moment bullets start flying. You can never predict how someone will react under fire, so expecting a teacher to deal with the situation is insanity.

[Ructions]

Russian Troll Bot said:

Soliders can go through years of training but crack the moment bullets start flying. You can never predict how someone will react under fire, so expecting a teacher to deal with the situation is insanity.

Insanity and Trump are regular bedfellows.

[Dr Jekyll]

p1stonhead said:

Dr Jekyll said:

La Liga said:

he UK police are exceptionally unlikely to face any serious firearms like an AR-15.

Why?

Because there aren’t any

And you know what I mean by ‘any’ in this context.

I was firing one legally in the UK a few months back. A couple of friends have semi automatic rifles that may not be technical AR-15s but functionally the same.

[TTmonkey]

Dr Jekyll said:

p1stonhead said:

Dr Jekyll said:

La Liga said:

he UK police are exceptionally unlikely to face any serious firearms like an AR-15.

Why?

Because there aren’t any

And you know what I mean by ‘any’ in this context.

I was firing one legally in the UK a few months back. A couple of friends have semi automatic rifles that may not be technical AR-15s but functionally the same.

You cant pop into ASDA and buy one when someone makes fun of you in school though can you...?

[durbster]

Hoofy said:

As a fan of Battlefield, I honestly can say I would have waded in at the first sign of trouble and took the gunman down.

As a fan of Battlefield, I have learnt that camping at a choke point such as an exit reaps the best rewards.

As a fan of Battlefield, I've never seen real gun battles and would probably hide and crap my pants.

Pick one.

I expect NRA Rambo wannabes would think option (1).

I got stuck into this idea of arming teachers on Twitter yesterday, making the simple point that professional, full-time, trained police officers shoot lots of people accidentally when they mistake a gun or even a gesture. And they expect a barely-trained teacher to be able to switch from talking about photosynthesis to Special Forces mode in thirty seconds.

Every single person objecting to my point had a Hollywood fantasy version of how a gunfight works and no regard for how human beings really react in a situation like that. They all seem to imagine it plays out like a John Woo film.

[red_slr]

Dr Jekyll said:

La Liga said:

he UK police are exceptionally unlikely to face any serious firearms like an AR-15.

Why?

Because there are very few firearms in the UK and those that do own have been through the process to acquire said firearms so have been checked out. Their doctors are aware they are firearms owners. They are monitored for strange behaviour by other members of their club etc etc. Centre fire semi automatic rifles are banned so rates of fire are (generally) lower. As such the armed police are unlikely to go straight up 1 on 1 with an nutter with an AR15 doing mag dumps.

I would also go as far as to say our armed police are, in some situations, better trained than many US officers. Our armed police have one job to do, and that's to be an armed officer who responds to situations where firearms may be involved. US officers have to do all the other normal stuff police officers do, they just happen to carry a firearm. Also our armed police are often better equipped than US officers. Their vehicles are armoured which is a massive plus, they carry long guns as standard with plenty of ammo, they have ballistic shields, advanced medical equipment and are always in pairs, sometimes 3s or even more. That's the key part.

A cop who has been put on a cushy number to see out his retirement with a pistol and a couple of mags is going to really have his work cut out against someone with a long gun and lots of ammo and a death wish.

[andy_s]

six wheels said:

Looking at the footage of the UK police response to the London Bridge/Borough Market attack, I think they do now pretty much run in:
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jun/07/lo...

I remember reading at the time - but haven't gone looking for a link - that police tactics in the UK are changing in response to terror attacks. That is, they are no more likely to GO IN than stand off waiting on intel as previously.

I'm not suggesting for a moment that this is in any way something teachers (teacher ffs!) should be expected to do. Nor that this level of response - run *at* the attackers immediately - is something that anyone other than a professional with intensive training, backup and intel could be expected to do either.

True, adapting from a standard 'gunman siege' response to an 'immediate ongoing attack' response.

[andy_s]

durbster said:

Every single person objecting to my point had a Hollywood fantasy version of how a gunfight works and no regard for how human beings really react in a situation like that. They all seem to imagine it plays out like a John Woo film.

True; as my post this morning - trained US LE have an 80% miss rate at an average of 7m, largely to inappropriate training and the bodies reaction to shock. It's definitely not Hollywood.

[Moonhawk]

andy_s said:

durbster said:

Every single person objecting to my point had a Hollywood fantasy version of how a gunfight works and no regard for how human beings really react in a situation like that. They all seem to imagine it plays out like a John Woo film.

True; as my post this morning - trained US LE have an 80% miss rate at an average of 7m, largely to inappropriate training and the bodies reaction to shock. It's definitely not Hollywood.

Indeed. This is probably much closer to the truth of how a situation like this one would have played out had the cop gone in:

http://nation.time.com/2013/09/16/ready-fire-aim-t...

[98elise]

Dr Jekyll said:

p1stonhead said:

Dr Jekyll said:

La Liga said:

he UK police are exceptionally unlikely to face any serious firearms like an AR-15.

Why?

Because there aren’t any

And you know what I mean by ‘any’ in this context.

I was firing one legally in the UK a few months back. A couple of friends have semi automatic rifles that may not be technical AR-15s but functionally the same.

We're you firing at the police?

[red_slr]

andy_s said:

True, adapting from a standard 'gunman siege' response to an 'immediate ongoing attack' response.

Their real test will come if we do get some proper combat hardened folks who want to do real damage and running AKs etc i.e ISIS etal.
I hope it never comes to that as I expect it will be a much harder fight that most people think as we have seen over the water in France. You could be talking an hour to get some proper back up in some places and most likely coming by air by which time they have moved on.

Luck plays a massive part in these incidents.

[andy_s]

Moonhawk said:

Indeed. This is probably much closer to the truth of how a situation like this one would have played out had the cop gone in:

http://nation.time.com/2013/09/16/ready-fire-aim-t...

Exactly that; tunnel vision, high blood pressure, adrenaline dump, time dilation, situational awareness shrink, loss of fine motor skills and sudden psychological surrealism - the qualifying shoots are Olympic in style and unadapted to these factors, so no wonder the average cop can hardly hit anything. As above - for dedicated teams it's slightly different - generally they have time to prep prior to things getting noisy. Reaction vs. Response.
I have sympathy with the Deputy caught between fight and flight, I certainly wouldn't judge his actions and he'll spend the rest of his life rethinking those moments I'm sure, but posting glorified security guards or arming the maths teacher is like trying to eat soup with a knife.

Edited by andy_s on Friday 23 February 14:25

[JuniorD]

red_slr said:

Dr Jekyll said:

La Liga said:

he UK police are exceptionally unlikely to face any serious firearms like an AR-15.

Why?

Because there are very few firearms in the UK and those that do own have been through the process to acquire said firearms so have been checked out. Their doctors are aware they are firearms owners. They are monitored for strange behaviour by other members of their club etc etc. Centre fire semi automatic rifles are banned so rates of fire are (generally) lower. As such the armed police are unlikely to go straight up 1 on 1 with an nutter with an AR15 doing mag dumps.

I would also go as far as to say our armed police are, in some situations, better trained than many US officers. Our armed police have one job to do, and that's to be an armed officer who responds to situations where firearms may be involved. US officers have to do all the other normal stuff police officers do, they just happen to carry a firearm. Also our armed police are often better equipped than US officers. Their vehicles are armoured which is a massive plus, they carry long guns as standard with plenty of ammo, they have ballistic shields, advanced medical equipment and are always in pairs, sometimes 3s or even more. That's the key part.

A cop who has been put on a cushy number to see out his retirement with a pistol and a couple of mags is going to really have his work cut out against someone with a long gun and lots of ammo and a death wish.

Not to contradict anything you say, but rather to expand, in Northern Ireland, PSNI officers are all armed with a Glock 17, including beat, traffic, cycle officers etc. which they carry when doing all the usual stuff police officers do. Many of them also carry Heckler & Koch G36C rifles. I'd say they are better trained and capable than regular US police too.

[Coolbanana]

I've done Neighbourhood Patrol in South Africa for many years and that's just a group of Homeowners wanting to protect their properties and loved ones.

While we all had military training from conscription and had owned guns for many years, it is one thing to be a 'wannabe hero' and another to actually be involved in a gunfight.

I can assure you, it isn't fun when you are being shot at. I've experienced it and it isn't something I would rush towards given a choice.

Arming Teachers is stupid. Expecting this lone Officer to be a Hero is equally stupid. Gung-ho types with huge ego's and oversized machismo will condemn the guy but facing a man with superior firepower with screaming kids running around in every direction must be extremely difficult. If the USA really wants to protect the kids and refuse to control guns, they need a dedicated SWAT team posted at every school, not simply one Officer with a Glock who has never been in a really dangerous situation.

When you sign up to be a cop, you do not sign up to give your Life. Yes, many are indeed Hero's but we cannot expect everyone to react equally and we certainly shouldn't be condemning this Officer for being afraid to proceed against the madman.

By apportioning any blame to this Officer, the USA is once again ignoring the real problem; the all-too easy availability to guns.

[simo1863]

Dr Jekyll said:

I was firing one legally in the UK a few months back. A couple of friends have semi automatic rifles that may not be technical AR-15s but functionally the same.

you cannot legally own a 5.56mm that shoots semi auto in the UK. Licensed or not.

Whilst semi automatics are legal in rimfire, they are in tiny calibres only. Literally a fraction of the power (you're looking at 2-3 grains of powder in a .22 Long Rifle, which is probably what you shot, compared to somewhere between 70-80 for a 5.56).

In fact if you look at the recent spat of AR-15 type 5.56mm assault rifles used in mass shootings and even go back to Columbine (which was pistols and sub machine guns) they're all types of guns that you cannot get in the UK legally.

Even so, Americans love assault rifles and shooting/gun ownership and gun tinkering is a massive part of their culture I think the sensible step is licensing. Something sensible like here with no criminals, mental health, prescription meds and an age restriction as sensible as their drinking laws.

And a few people have questioned if people hunt in the US with assault weapons and they do, possibly in the most American way ever https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dVMpg3_Ry40&t=...

[HTP99]

simo1863 said:

And a few people have questioned if people hunt in the US with assault weapons and they do, possibly in the most American way ever https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dVMpg3_Ry40&t=...

That is fking horrible.

[JuniorD]

simo1863 said:

And a few people have questioned if people hunt in the US with assault weapons and they do, possibly in the most American way ever https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dVMpg3_Ry40&t=...

Am I the only one watching that thinking 'please fall out of the helicopter you sick s'?

This is the only acceptable us of automatic weapons IMO https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JGjSvlHgQgQ (NSW - 1980s bikini clad women discharging)

[p1stonhead]

HTP99 said:

simo1863 said:

And a few people have questioned if people hunt in the US with assault weapons and they do, possibly in the most American way ever https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dVMpg3_Ry40&t=...

That is fking horrible.

Americans really are so very different to us. Easy to forget that with the lack of language barrier.