Miami school shooting

[HTP99]

p1stonhead said:

HTP99 said:

simo1863 said:

And a few people have questioned if people hunt in the US with assault weapons and they do, possibly in the most American way ever https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dVMpg3_Ry40&t=...

That is fking horrible.

Americans really are so very different to us. Easy to forget that with the lack of language barrier.

I have distant American relatives, I've never met them, however my mum went over to stay with them a few years ago.

They are Texan (I think), my mum said they were lovely and very hospitable but really struggled with their love for guns and hunting, (particularly with being a veggie), she just couldn't get her head around it and guns being around and part of their daily life; unsurprisingly they are massive Trump supporters too.

[mko9]

Feral hogs are a blight on the environment, and reproduce almost as fast as rabbits.

[liner33]

simo1863 said:

you cannot legally own a 5.56mm that shoots semi auto in the UK. Licensed or not.

Whilst semi automatics are legal in rimfire, they are in tiny calibres only. Literally a fraction of the power (you're looking at 2-3 grains of powder in a .22 Long Rifle, which is probably what you shot, compared to somewhere between 70-80 for a 5.56).

In fact if you look at the recent spat of AR-15 type 5.56mm assault rifles used in mass shootings and even go back to Columbine (which was pistols and sub machine guns) they're all types of guns that you cannot get in the UK legally.

Even so, Americans love assault rifles and shooting/gun ownership and gun tinkering is a massive part of their culture I think the sensible step is licensing. Something sensible like here with no criminals, mental health, prescription meds and an age restriction as sensible as their drinking laws.

And a few people have questioned if people hunt in the US with assault weapons and they do, possibly in the most American way ever https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dVMpg3_Ry40&t=...

Just to point out .22 is 5.6mm so is a similar calibre to a 5.56mm.

Also Columbine used shotguns , we have shotguns

[p1stonhead]

liner33 said:

simo1863 said:

you cannot legally own a 5.56mm that shoots semi auto in the UK. Licensed or not.

Whilst semi automatics are legal in rimfire, they are in tiny calibres only. Literally a fraction of the power (you're looking at 2-3 grains of powder in a .22 Long Rifle, which is probably what you shot, compared to somewhere between 70-80 for a 5.56).

In fact if you look at the recent spat of AR-15 type 5.56mm assault rifles used in mass shootings and even go back to Columbine (which was pistols and sub machine guns) they're all types of guns that you cannot get in the UK legally.

Even so, Americans love assault rifles and shooting/gun ownership and gun tinkering is a massive part of their culture I think the sensible step is licensing. Something sensible like here with no criminals, mental health, prescription meds and an age restriction as sensible as their drinking laws.

And a few people have questioned if people hunt in the US with assault weapons and they do, possibly in the most American way ever https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dVMpg3_Ry40&t=...

Just to point out .22 is 5.6mm so is a similar calibre to a 5.56mm.

Also Columbine used shotguns , we have shotguns

Did they?

I seem to remember they used handgun/uzi type things.

Edit- they used shotguns and lots of other stuff.
http://acolumbinesite.com/weapon.php

Edited by p1stonhead on Friday 23 February 16:24

[Dr Doofenshmirtz]

HTP99 said:

simo1863 said:

And a few people have questioned if people hunt in the US with assault weapons and they do, possibly in the most American way ever https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dVMpg3_Ry40&t=...

That is fking horrible.

Americans can be so amazing (SpaceX launch/landing) and so fking retarded (pretty much everything else they do).

[andy_s]

liner33 said:

Just to point out .22 is 5.6mm so is a similar calibre to a 5.56mm.

Also Columbine used shotguns , we have shotguns

It's a similar calibre, but a completely different round - [5.56mm - .22]

[frankenstein12]

One of the things i find truly interesting about all of this is the odd idea of trying to restrict access to machine guns as they are perceived to be more lethal somehow than a pistol which is simply not the case.

Even a very well trained gunner will struggle to in any reasonable form string an accurate fire line together with a machine gun. A pistol on the other hand they could easily enough get a very tight grouping. Pistols are also much more easily conceiled and can be fitted with large magazines holding up to 100 bullets and some can fire automatically at high rates much like machine guns.

You can also fit them with all sorts of bullets which will be just as destructive on impacting a human body as a rifle bullet.

As I see this issue I dont particualrly like the idea of teachers open carrying or concealed carrying in schools. Too muh temptation for a teacher to shoot one of the little sts when pushed too far.

What i think is the best answer is to have a gun safe in an easy to reach location such as a classroom in each building at a school or on each floor of a school. The safe could have a two stage opening system where the weapons trained teachers would have a code to access the safe but the safe will not open unless there is an active shooter alarm activated.

In each safe there would be a gun, ammunition, a radio so they can communicate with each other+police/FBI etc to coordinate a response to the shooter and a jacket or vest to make themselves identifiable.

In so doing if there is an active shooter it wont be a case of one teacher against a shooter it will be a case of a bunch of teachers coordinating a response to eather shoot or simply pin the shooter down somewhere where they cannot harm anyone else. It will also help in that the teachers will feel safer and more capable of dealing with the shooter if there are a number of them.

They all may be afraid to engage but it also means there will be at least one who will have the guts to try take the shooter on and in that sort of scenario the other teachers would follow in support of their leader (mostly).

Not perfect but a decent compromise to the idea of having either none or all which seems to be about the present mindset.

[Byker28i]

frankenstein12 said:

One of the things i find truly interesting about all of this is the odd idea of trying to restrict access to machine guns as they are perceived to be more lethal somehow than a pistol which is simply not the case.

Even a very well trained gunner will struggle to in any reasonable form string an accurate fire line together with a machine gun. A pistol on the other hand they could easily enough get a very tight grouping. Pistols are also much more easily conceiled and can be fitted with large magazines holding up to 100 bullets and some can fire automatically at high rates much like machine guns.

You can also fit them with all sorts of bullets which will be just as destructive on impacting a human body as a rifle bullet.

As I see this issue I dont particualrly like the idea of teachers open carrying or concealed carrying in schools. Too muh temptation for a teacher to shoot one of the little sts when pushed too far.

What i think is the best answer is to have a gun safe in an easy to reach location such as a classroom in each building at a school or on each floor of a school. The safe could have a two stage opening system where the weapons trained teachers would have a code to access the safe but the safe will not open unless there is an active shooter alarm activated.

In each safe there would be a gun, ammunition, a radio so they can communicate with each other+police/FBI etc to coordinate a response to the shooter and a jacket or vest to make themselves identifiable.

In so doing if there is an active shooter it wont be a case of one teacher against a shooter it will be a case of a bunch of teachers coordinating a response to eather shoot or simply pin the shooter down somewhere where they cannot harm anyone else. It will also help in that the teachers will feel safer and more capable of dealing with the shooter if there are a number of them.

They all may be afraid to engage but it also means there will be at least one who will have the guts to try take the shooter on and in that sort of scenario the other teachers would follow in support of their leader (mostly).

Not perfect but a decent compromise to the idea of having either none or all which seems to be about the present mindset.

Quoted as seriously I cannot believe you wrote that.

Go read this article
https://www.theatlantic.com/politic...land-should-...

[liner33]

andy_s said:

It's a similar calibre, but a completely different round - [5.56mm - .22]

and now post a .223 and a 5.56mm (.223 is a very common hunting round)

I think this demonstrates the shortcomings that law makers have to deal with , people not understanding what calibre is and demonising certain weapons because they have been used in a certain way

[frankenstein12]

Byker28i said:

frankenstein12 said:

Not perfect but a decent compromise to the idea of having either none or all which seems to be about the present mindset.

Quoted as seriously I cannot believe you wrote that.

Go read this article
https://www.theatlantic.com/politic...land-should-...

Link does not work.

You can disbelieve all you want. The reality FACT of the matter is you will not stop nutters gaining access to these types of weapons whether you restrict access or ban them. There are just too many of them in the US. There are something like 2 guns for every person in the US.

As such as much as it sucks the only realistic to try reduce death tolls in school shootings barring turning schools into fortressess/virtual prisons for students is to arm teachers.

Edited by frankenstein12 on Friday 23 February 17:17

[bitchstewie]

Coolbanana said:

When you sign up to be a cop, you do not sign up to give your Life. Yes, many are indeed Hero's but we cannot expect everyone to react equally and we certainly shouldn't be condemning this Officer for being afraid to proceed against the madman.

By apportioning any blame to this Officer, the USA is once again ignoring the real problem; the all-too easy availability to guns.

^^

Nails on head IMO.

I'm literally amazed at what Trump has said given the info known so far.

[Bacon Is Proof]

frankenstein12 said:

Link does not work.

You can disbelieve all you want. The reality FACT of the matter is you will not stop nutters gaining access to these types of weapons whether you restrict access or ban them. There are just too many of them in the US. There are something like 2 guns for every person in the US.

As such as much as it sucks the only realistic to try reduce death tolls in school shootings barring turning schools into fortressess/virtual prisons for students is to arm teachers.

So the answer to there being too many guns in the US is more guns?

You idiot.

[Byker28i]

frankenstein12 said:

Link does not work.

You can disbelieve all you want. The reality FACT of the matter is you will not stop nutters gaining access to these types of weapons whether you restrict access or ban them. There are just too many of them in the US. There are something like 2 guns for every person in the US.

As such as much as it sucks the only realistic to try reduce death tolls in school shootings barring turning schools into fortressess/virtual prisons for students is to arm teachers.

try this
https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2018/...

I'm very aware of the capabilities of various weapons, handguns, AR15's etc. Your suggestion that handguns are more or as equal as rifles is laughable. What they are is more concealable. At a range of 15-25m they become an area denial weapon.

Most US citizens who practice at a range with their handgun, do so at 5m, because that's their perceived threat range, in the house etc.
Even then, their grouping is poor. With an AR-15 and red dot sight it's easy to get a good grouping, even for a novice at 30m.

As previously mentioned, the solution isn't more guns, it's less. How many mass shootings were from illegal guns recently?

[andy_s]

liner33 said:

and now post a .223 and a 5.56mm (.223 is a very common hunting round)

I think this demonstrates the shortcomings that law makers have to deal with , people not understanding what calibre is and demonising certain weapons because they have been used in a certain way

.22 rimfire (as mentioned in the post you quoted, because it was semi-auto in the UK) is of course different to .223 which is very similar to 5.56.

Lawmakers have already made the distinction here in the UK, there's no reason to believe they are 'confused', even if 'people' may be.

[frankenstein12]

Bacon Is Proof said:

frankenstein12 said:

Link does not work.

You can disbelieve all you want. The reality FACT of the matter is you will not stop nutters gaining access to these types of weapons whether you restrict access or ban them. There are just too many of them in the US. There are something like 2 guns for every person in the US.

As such as much as it sucks the only realistic to try reduce death tolls in school shootings barring turning schools into fortressess/virtual prisons for students is to arm teachers.

So the answer to there being too many guns in the US is more guns?

You idiot.

Yes I am "The Idiot" for suggesting a "safe" practical midway solution to the issue as part of the solution.

Your response is the EXACT reason these sorts of massacres will continue because rather than looking for compromise solutions you simply take a standard line of guns are bad anyone who suggests anything else is an idiot to be disregarded.

Well Done.

[zippy3x]

frankenstein12 said:

Yes I am "The Idiot" for suggesting a "safe" practical midway solution to the issue as part of the solution.

Your response is the EXACT reason these sorts of massacres will continue because rather than looking for compromise solutions you simply take a standard line of guns are bad anyone who suggests anything else is an idiot to be disregarded.

Well Done.

Maybe your ideas would have been better received had you not started with the "handguns are as lethal as assault rifles" bks

Question : having read the article linked, and taking two minutes to ask why every combat soldier in the world is given an assault rifle instead of a couple of pistols, do you still think that they are equally lethal?

[simo1863]

liner33 said:

and now post a .223 and a 5.56mm (.223 is a very common hunting round)

I think this demonstrates the shortcomings that law makers have to deal with , people not understanding what calibre is and demonising certain weapons because they have been used in a certain way

The point I was making is that you can't get a semi automatic rifle in the UK, in anywhere near the same calibre..... which you can't. 223 aren't rimfire and so are illegal in the UK in semi automatic form.

..... and it's kind of why I gave the amount of powder in each cartridge (which is the main component behind the bullet velocity). A 22 and 223 might sound similar to the uninitiated but one is infinitely more deadly than the other.

[frankenstein12]

Byker28i said:

frankenstein12 said:

Link does not work.

You can disbelieve all you want. The reality FACT of the matter is you will not stop nutters gaining access to these types of weapons whether you restrict access or ban them. There are just too many of them in the US. There are something like 2 guns for every person in the US.

As such as much as it sucks the only realistic to try reduce death tolls in school shootings barring turning schools into fortressess/virtual prisons for students is to arm teachers.

try this
https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2018/...

I'm very aware of the capabilities of various weapons, handguns, AR15's etc. Your suggestion that handguns are more or as equal as rifles is laughable. What they are is more concealable. At a range of 15-25m they become an area denial weapon.

Most US citizens who practice at a range with their handgun, do so at 5m, because that's their perceived threat range, in the house etc.
Even then, their grouping is poor. With an AR-15 and red dot sight it's easy to get a good grouping, even for a novice at 30m.

As previously mentioned, the solution isn't more guns, it's less. How many mass shootings were from illegal guns recently?

Very true regarding how many recent shootings were with illegal guns which is so far as I am aware none. Realistically there need to be much better controls on guns in the US HOWEVER that is only part of the solution. You can restrict guns in the US as much as you like but nutters will still be able to buy them.

The below are just some examples of the issues etc.

http://consumer.findlaw.com/consumer-transactions/...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KltBeXu4I7Y&t=...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oLEV3hhF86E

[DurianIceCream]

Dr Doofenshmirtz said:

HTP99 said:

simo1863 said:

And a few people have questioned if people hunt in the US with assault weapons and they do, possibly in the most American way ever https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dVMpg3_Ry40&t=...

That is fking horrible.

Americans can be so amazing (SpaceX launch/landing) and so fking retarded (pretty much everything else they do).

That is almost certainly a paid, contract pest control shooter (although personally I think pigs are cute and could never shoot one). That is not unique to the US - centrefire semi-autos are banned in Australia, but not for contract shooters. You will see the same type of video from Australia with semi-auto rifles firing from helicopters or vehicles at multiple animals which are considered pests.

That vid is a paid professional shooter.

[DurianIceCream]

simo1863 said:

..... and it's kind of why I gave the amount of powder in each cartridge (which is the main component behind the bullet velocity). A 22 and 223 might sound similar to the uninitiated but one is infinitely more deadly than the other.

22 rimfires are still deadly, they just aren't drop dead instantly deadly. You might expire a half hour later. I think if you Google up Hoddle Street Massacre, that was done with a 22 rimfire.