How do we think EU negotiations will go? (Vol 3)
Discussion
EddieSteadyGo said:
Good article from Dan Hannan in The Telegraph today regarding the Ireland border issues.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/04/21/eu-bel...
My own view is that now is not the right point in the negotiation to compromise on the Irish border. It will reach a point where the Irish government decide it is in their best interests to start applying pressure to the EU negotiation team (after all, the RoI really does have a massive amount economically to lose). When we get to the that point it will be the right time to start trying to find a compromise.
Quite. I pointed out a while back that Ireland is playing a dangerous game aligning this close to the EU in the negotiations. No deal threatens to ruin the Irish economy in many different ways and refusing to budge on the border makes that more likely. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/04/21/eu-bel...
My own view is that now is not the right point in the negotiation to compromise on the Irish border. It will reach a point where the Irish government decide it is in their best interests to start applying pressure to the EU negotiation team (after all, the RoI really does have a massive amount economically to lose). When we get to the that point it will be the right time to start trying to find a compromise.
The problem of course is that Ireland changing their tune is a conspicuous success for the UK's "Divide and Rule" strategy, and my guess is that Dublin are desperate to not be the first country to fold given how enthusiastic they've been about the EU position up to now.
Hopefully the Netherlands, Denmark, or the Visigrad group will harden their concerns about how things are going, which will give Ireland a way to be part of a group of dissenters rather than a single one.
Gloria Slap said:
I see JRM is in brexpress today:
https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/949510/bre...
No answers, just threats to the big bad EU. “Dare you to put the border up” he shrills!
He has no answers of course, no explanatory solution to defuse the situation calmly.
He even points out the huge downsides to e.g. beef trade. Not his fault as a brexiteer of course. Only of course it is.
PS gooner1 - hoist by your own carelessly chosen words and sentences.
https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/949510/bre...
No answers, just threats to the big bad EU. “Dare you to put the border up” he shrills!
He has no answers of course, no explanatory solution to defuse the situation calmly.
He even points out the huge downsides to e.g. beef trade. Not his fault as a brexiteer of course. Only of course it is.
PS gooner1 - hoist by your own carelessly chosen words and sentences.
That from an online media source newspaper, "he shrilled", must have come through ///ajd's PC's speakers.
Another Ghosn moment, the smile, the slightly raised eyebrows, a 'brown envelope' moment according to ///ajd.
davepoth said:
The problem of course is that Ireland changing their tune is a conspicuous success for the UK's "Divide and Rule" strategy, and my guess is that Dublin are desperate to not be the first country to fold given how enthusiastic they've been about the EU position up to now.
The Irish government are in a difficult position. We know they are a net beneficiary from the EU. So in that sense the EU commission hold the whip hand.And they are also under pressure from the commission with regard to their business taxes. So it isn't hard to imagine that the EU could lean on the Irish government suggesting it is in their best interests to think of the 'greater good' on Brexit.
But that only works while domestic political pressures in Ireland are fairly benign. When they start to feel a bit more heat from some of the farmers for example, they should start to be a bit more reasonable.
At the end of the day, getting the best Brexit deal for the UK is going to make us (the UK) a bit unpopular in the short term with some of our neighbours. And they might throw a few insults at us. As long as we realise that inadvance and so retain our calm determination it will be fine.
EddieSteadyGo said:
davepoth said:
The problem of course is that Ireland changing their tune is a conspicuous success for the UK's "Divide and Rule" strategy, and my guess is that Dublin are desperate to not be the first country to fold given how enthusiastic they've been about the EU position up to now.
The Irish government are in a difficult position. We know they are a net beneficiary from the EU. So in that sense the EU commission hold the whip hand.And they are also under pressure from the commission with regard to their business taxes. So it isn't hard to imagine that the EU could lean on the Irish government suggesting it is in their best interests to think of the 'greater good' on Brexit.
But that only works while domestic political pressures in Ireland are fairly benign. When they start to feel a bit more heat from some of the farmers for example, they should start to be a bit more reasonable.
At the end of the day, getting the best Brexit deal for the UK is going to make us (the UK) a bit unpopular in the short term with some of our neighbours. And they might throw a few insults at us. As long as we realise that inadvance and so retain our calm determination it will be fine.
And Dave, you were promising us earlier that Liechtenstein was the answer to free trade and immigration control. Wrong.
At some stage brexiteers will have to face up to the fact it is thier dogmatic refusal to engage with the EUs solutions that is putting the best interests of the nations involved at risk.
You really want us to have a hard brexit - that was obviously “Crystal clear” to some?
Fine let’s vote on it - “hard brexit” or remain. If you or team brexit can deliver a better outcome in the meantime fill your boots, you’ve had nearly two years now......
EddieSteadyGo said:
Good article from Dan Hannan in The Telegraph today regarding the Ireland border issues.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/04/21/eu-bel...
My own view is that now is not the right point in the negotiation to compromise on the Irish border. It will reach a point where the Irish government decide it is in their best interests to start applying pressure to the EU negotiation team (after all, the RoI really does have a massive amount economically to lose). When we get to the that point it will be the right time to start trying to find a compromise.
Is difficult to believe Hannah is that stupid but politicians rarely let us down.https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/04/21/eu-bel...
My own view is that now is not the right point in the negotiation to compromise on the Irish border. It will reach a point where the Irish government decide it is in their best interests to start applying pressure to the EU negotiation team (after all, the RoI really does have a massive amount economically to lose). When we get to the that point it will be the right time to start trying to find a compromise.
Gloria Slap said:
Sounds like the “BMW will tell Merkel what to do” argument. Wrong.
And Dave, you were promising us earlier that Liechtenstein was the answer to free trade and immigration control. Wrong.
At some stage brexiteers will have to face up to the fact it is thier dogmatic refusal to engage with the EUs solutions that is putting the best interests of the nations involved at risk.
You really want us to have a hard brexit - that was obviously “Crystal clear” to some?
Fine let’s vote on it - “hard brexit” or remain. If you or team brexit can deliver a better outcome in the meantime fill your boots, you’ve had nearly two years now......
It isn't quite the “BMW will tell Merkel what to do” argument.And Dave, you were promising us earlier that Liechtenstein was the answer to free trade and immigration control. Wrong.
At some stage brexiteers will have to face up to the fact it is thier dogmatic refusal to engage with the EUs solutions that is putting the best interests of the nations involved at risk.
You really want us to have a hard brexit - that was obviously “Crystal clear” to some?
Fine let’s vote on it - “hard brexit” or remain. If you or team brexit can deliver a better outcome in the meantime fill your boots, you’ve had nearly two years now......
Germany probably has more political capital invested into the EU project than anyone. Hence why Germany can't afford to be seen to choose the economically expedient path. This is mainly why the 'BMW will tell Merkel what to do” argument fails.
However, the situation in Ireland is different. Firstly the compromises necessary to make the Ireland border work are far less significant. They require mostly positive goodwill rather than compromises on fundamental principles which would affect the integrity of the single market. And secondly, the adjustments necessary to protect a large part of the Irish economy can be compartmentalised, so they don't create unhelpful precedents for other EU countries.
Mrr T said:
EddieSteadyGo said:
Good article from Dan Hannan in The Telegraph today regarding the Ireland border issues.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/04/21/eu-bel...
My own view is that now is not the right point in the negotiation to compromise on the Irish border. It will reach a point where the Irish government decide it is in their best interests to start applying pressure to the EU negotiation team (after all, the RoI really does have a massive amount economically to lose). When we get to the that point it will be the right time to start trying to find a compromise.
Is difficult to believe Hannah is that stupid but politicians rarely let us down.https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/04/21/eu-bel...
My own view is that now is not the right point in the negotiation to compromise on the Irish border. It will reach a point where the Irish government decide it is in their best interests to start applying pressure to the EU negotiation team (after all, the RoI really does have a massive amount economically to lose). When we get to the that point it will be the right time to start trying to find a compromise.
Gloria Slap said:
Sounds like the “BMW will tell Merkel what to do” argument. Wrong.
No it doesn't. The potential economic issues for Ireland go far, far beyond big business.Gloria Slap said:
And Dave, you were promising us earlier that Liechtenstein was the answer to free trade and immigration control. Wrong.
I said it was one potential answer more than two years ago and I have already explained to you (in nice, small words, no less!) why I mentioned it, and why I have discounted it as it is no longer an option. Holding on to dogma is very silly, you should try letting go of things once in a while. Which brings us neatly on to...Gloria Slap said:
At some stage brexiteers will have to face up to the fact it is thier dogmatic refusal to engage with the EUs solutions that is putting the best interests of the nations involved at risk.
Funny that, because I don't see any solutions that the EU has suggested. All they've said is that it's the UK's job to provide solutions, surely?Gloria Slap said:
You really want us to have a hard brexit - that was obviously “Crystal clear” to some?
Fine let’s vote on it - “hard brexit” or remain. If you or team brexit can deliver a better outcome in the meantime fill your boots, you’ve had nearly two years now......
The vote when we have it (late 2018, in parliament) will be "whatever the deal is, or adamantine Brexit", and there will be an unholy coalition against the deal if things carry on as they are. Think about that for a moment, before you carry on complaining about the government doing their best for a workable deal.Fine let’s vote on it - “hard brexit” or remain. If you or team brexit can deliver a better outcome in the meantime fill your boots, you’ve had nearly two years now......
Turbotbloke said:
gooner1 said:
Turbotbloke said:
I'm not this Eddie.
Snipped. So which Eddie are you, Eddie?
But let's get back to you being a moron, shall we?
First you said:
gooner1 said:
You ask why Brexiteers don't feel the need to apologise for gammon. Why on earth would we do that? Do you think anyone
Of different faiths, or beliefs, should apologise for any comments or act carried out by followers of the same faith or belief?
Then, when I, quite reasonably told you you were a moron, you replied:Of different faiths, or beliefs, should apologise for any comments or act carried out by followers of the same faith or belief?
gooner1 said:
Do you see that full stop after the word gammon and just before the sentence beggining with the words "Why on earth...."
The full stop is a way of informing a reader that a sentence has finished, and a new sentence may follow, or not, depending on the authors whim.
In this particular instance, a new sentence did indeed begin, and Lo and behold
a different question was asked. It really is that simple, now if you are really struggling with this concept, and oddly enough, the intended recipient didn't, then I'm afraid you are on your own, Eddie.
Which is about as moronic as you like. The problem is, dad, that theo sentences are linked together; not just by proximity but in meaning. Of course you want to imagine those sentences aren't linked because that would make you look stupid. Unfortunately, however, they are linked and you are really stupid.The full stop is a way of informing a reader that a sentence has finished, and a new sentence may follow, or not, depending on the authors whim.
In this particular instance, a new sentence did indeed begin, and Lo and behold
a different question was asked. It really is that simple, now if you are really struggling with this concept, and oddly enough, the intended recipient didn't, then I'm afraid you are on your own, Eddie.
How can I prove this? Well, I could start by explaining that in writing, we create meaning by linking ideas together in the form of sentences. And, once you've joined a few sentences together, it creates a paragraph. You could actually use a collection of paragraphs to write a novel - a thing with lots of meaning. OK so far?
Your first sentence made a statement "You ask why Brexiters don't feel the need to apologise for gammon?". The second sentence asked me "Why would I do that?", which is clearly referring to the first sentence. The third sentence is a question "Do you think.. etc" which clearly refers back to the first and second sentences. It interrogates them by asking "..should people of xyz faith apologise for acts etc carried out by others who follow xyz faith?". And that's how you, yes you, you complete and utter moron, linked Gammon to the idea of faith.
Now, as if that wasn't moronic enough, in order to cover up your utter moronicness you tried to argue that; because there was a full stop between the sentences they stood alone and weren't linked; that, somehow, full stops mean that sentences can't link ideas or refer to each other. Now that really takes the biscuit. (Although it will explain why you will fail to understand this).
Honestly, I know Gammon are supposed to be thick but you're taking it up to another level. You're a kind of Gammon black hole - so dense nothing of any intelligence can ever come out of it.
And to finish off:
gooner1 said:
Oh, btw, It's pretty stupid asking someone you suspect suffers from Receptive Aphasia, to look up Receptive Aphasia.
I refer you to: Turbotbloke said:
I suggest you look up Receptive Aphasia.
On second thoughts, best ask someone else to do it...
Moron. On second thoughts, best ask someone else to do it...
Was it something I said, son?
turbobloke said:
Mrr T said:
EddieSteadyGo said:
Good article from Dan Hannan in The Telegraph today regarding the Ireland border issues.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/04/21/eu-bel...
My own view is that now is not the right point in the negotiation to compromise on the Irish border. It will reach a point where the Irish government decide it is in their best interests to start applying pressure to the EU negotiation team (after all, the RoI really does have a massive amount economically to lose). When we get to the that point it will be the right time to start trying to find a compromise.
Is difficult to believe Hannah is that stupid but politicians rarely let us down.https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/04/21/eu-bel...
My own view is that now is not the right point in the negotiation to compromise on the Irish border. It will reach a point where the Irish government decide it is in their best interests to start applying pressure to the EU negotiation team (after all, the RoI really does have a massive amount economically to lose). When we get to the that point it will be the right time to start trying to find a compromise.
Ireland is a member of the EU and by that is part of the SM and the CU. This structure is part of Irish law. The rule about trading with a third country are clear. The UK has decided to leave the EU, SM and CU and become a third country. Ireland is not being forced to do anything. Ireland is not changing any laws. It's just following the rules. It's the UK which is making the change.
I suppose the success of the proposed brexit, depends upon the success of heritage Britain on the world stage
In reality the idyllic past of Morris Minor convertibles & 60s London is but a distant dream.
Can such a vision be resurrected? Is it enough to improve on what we have now?
Very doubtful, but entertaining (comedy gold) to the unaffected bystander
(An EU passport holder the same as St Nigel’s family & better off financially due to Brexit (like Nige & Boris & the rest or those, that will gain at the expense of the archetypal Brexit voter..)
In reality the idyllic past of Morris Minor convertibles & 60s London is but a distant dream.
Can such a vision be resurrected? Is it enough to improve on what we have now?
Very doubtful, but entertaining (comedy gold) to the unaffected bystander
(An EU passport holder the same as St Nigel’s family & better off financially due to Brexit (like Nige & Boris & the rest or those, that will gain at the expense of the archetypal Brexit voter..)
Edited by anonymous-user on Sunday 22 April 15:07
Jimboka said:
I suppose the success of the proposed brexit, depends upon the success of heritage Britain on the world stage
In reality the idyllic past of Morris Minor convertibles & 60s London is but a distant dream.
Can such a vision be resurrected? Is it enough to improve on what we have now?
Very doubtful, but entertaining (comedy gold) to the unaffected bystander
(An EU passport holder the same as St Nigel’s family & better off financially due to Brexit (like Nige & Boris & the rest or those, that will gain at the expense of the archetypal Brexit voter..)
Cor blimey governor! Are you suggesting our future could be a giant theme park for the rest of the world to come and visit? That might just work!In reality the idyllic past of Morris Minor convertibles & 60s London is but a distant dream.
Can such a vision be resurrected? Is it enough to improve on what we have now?
Very doubtful, but entertaining (comedy gold) to the unaffected bystander
(An EU passport holder the same as St Nigel’s family & better off financially due to Brexit (like Nige & Boris & the rest or those, that will gain at the expense of the archetypal Brexit voter..)
Edited by Jimboka on Sunday 22 April 15:07
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