How do we think EU negotiations will go? (Vol 3)

[Gloria Slap]

davepoth said:

In one aspect of the border (physical infrastructure), he did actually say that.

https://hansard.parliament.uk/Lords/2018-03-19/deb...

(Lord Lamont, Column 74)

As above Lamont is not Hd HRMC.

This letter from Hd HRMC is interesting summary of how well the Border Working Group is doing:

https://www.parliament.uk/documents/commons-commit...


"based on the assumption that cross-border trade and travel will not change immediately in the days after we leave the EU. We find this extremely worrying for a number of reasons"

"We are surprised, therefore, to hear that engagement with traders has not yet started."

"Some incredibly important issues have not yet even been considered by the Group; for example arrangements for the 300 crossing points across the land border in Ireland are currently outside the scope of the Group."

Etc.

Its damning.

Brexit is a shambles.

[davepoth]

Gloria Slap said:

davepoth said:

In one aspect of the border (physical infrastructure), he did actually say that.

https://hansard.parliament.uk/Lords/2018-03-19/deb...

(Lord Lamont, Column 74)

As above Lamont is not Hd HRMC.

This letter from Hd HRMC is interesting summary of how well the Border Working Group is doing:

https://www.parliament.uk/documents/commons-commit...


"based on the assumption that cross-border trade and travel will not change immediately in the days after we leave the EU. We find this extremely worrying for a number of reasons"

"We are surprised, therefore, to hear that engagement with traders has not yet started."

"Some incredibly important issues have not yet even been considered by the Group; for example arrangements for the 300 crossing points across the land border in Ireland are currently outside the scope of the Group."

Etc.

Its damning.

Brexit is a shambles.

I'm fully aware of who Lord Lamont is - I was once in a queue for a buffet with him, but that's a story for another day.

https://parliamentlive.tv/event/index/dfcd9653-da2...

Thompson starts at around 10:37. He's referring to the Customs Arrangement rather than the Partnership. 10:41.30 will give you the money shot.

Seriously, it helps to read things properly from time to time.

[Mrr T]

davepoth said:

I'm fully aware of who Lord Lamont is - I was once in a queue for a buffet with him, but that's a story for another day.

https://parliamentlive.tv/event/index/dfcd9653-da2...

Thompson starts at around 10:37. He's referring to the Customs Arrangement rather than the Partnership. 10:41.30 will give you the money shot.

Seriously, it helps to read things properly from time to time.

It also helps if you understand what you are watching. The CEO of HMRC is a civil servant; when he answers questions, even to a select committee, he gives the view of the government not himself or the HMRC.

All he does is repeat the government idea of largely ignoring the need for a border in Ireland. A proposal, which the EU cannot accept while maintaining the integrity of the SM and CU and has therefore rejected.

[The Dangerous Elk]

Mrr T said:

A proposal, which the EU cannot accept while maintaining the integrity of the SM and CU and has therefore rejected. that is that over, negotiations should stop now, all done and dusted as the Eu has spoken

Edited by The Dangerous Elk on Monday 7th May 11:04

[EddieSteadyGo]

Mrr T said:

It also helps if you understand what you are watching. The CEO of HMRC is a civil servant; when he answers questions, even to a select committee, he gives the view of the government not himself or the HMRC.

All he does is repeat the government idea of largely ignoring the need for a border in Ireland. A proposal, which the EU cannot accept while maintaining the integrity of the SM and CU and has therefore rejected.

Just on a point of note, all civil servants are duty bound to tell the truth when giving evidence to select committees. So whether they answer giving the government's position or their own expert opinion will depend largely on how the question is asked.

[davepoth]

Mrr T said:

It also helps if you understand what you are watching. The CEO of HMRC is a civil servant; when he answers questions, even to a select committee, he gives the view of the government not himself or the HMRC.

All he does is repeat the government idea of largely ignoring the need for a border in Ireland. A proposal, which the EU cannot accept while maintaining the integrity of the SM and CU and has therefore rejected.

Your assertion was that he didn't say it. Stop changing the subject.

Mrr T said:

The only problem is the head of the HMRC never said that. Stop making things up. It does brexit no help.

Edited by davepoth on Monday 7th May 11:41

[don'tbesilly]

Mrr T said:

davepoth said:

I'm fully aware of who Lord Lamont is - I was once in a queue for a buffet with him, but that's a story for another day.

https://parliamentlive.tv/event/index/dfcd9653-da2...

Thompson starts at around 10:37. He's referring to the Customs Arrangement rather than the Partnership. 10:41.30 will give you the money shot.

Seriously, it helps to read things properly from time to time.

It also helps if you understand what you are watching. The CEO of HMRC is a civil servant; when he answers questions, even to a select committee, he gives the view of the government not himself or the HMRC.

All he does is repeat the government idea of largely ignoring the need for a border in Ireland. A proposal, which the EU cannot accept while maintaining the integrity of the SM and CU and has therefore rejected.

Jon Thompson has been called as a witness for the HMRC, as outlined below:


10:34:00
Witnesses: Jon Thompson, Chief Executive and Permanent Secretary, HM Revenue and Customs, John Bourne, Policy Director of Animal and Plant Health, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, Richard Everitt, Chairman, port of Dover, Richard Everitt, Head of Communications, Port of Dover and Richard Ballantyne, Chief Executive, British Ports Association

--

Can you produce some evidence to support you assertion that his statements to the committe are not the view of the HMRC ?

[Gloria Slap]

davepoth said:

Edited by davepoth on Monday 7th May 11:41

Dave

its a soundbite that is meaningless out if context. Whats more he says before that that 3 things are needed, and after says it could mean jack st if the EU don’t agree.

Did you read his letter?

Why is he worried last month (not nov 17) that the border group had done cock all about the issue of 300 border crossings in NI

[davepoth]

I've read the letter, and I can confirm that engagement with traders has begun.

-edit-

And as for the 300 crossings, there's a strong argument to say that you don't need to do anything there anyway.

[Gloria Slap]

I understand the argument that some suggest nothing is needed.

But that is not what Hd HRMC said at all - he listed three things which then might not need infra at the map border. Might. And depends on EU.

The same guy last month says he is concerned about these issues and risks. If engagement with traders has just started, it may be because he has sent a rocket up the border wg arse. To be only starting now is pretty lame.

It is still misleading therefore to quote Hd HRMC as if “here is someone saying there is no problem”. He is not saying that at alland the Lord was just throwing red meat....

[Mrr T]

EddieSteadyGo said:

Mrr T said:

It also helps if you understand what you are watching. The CEO of HMRC is a civil servant; when he answers questions, even to a select committee, he gives the view of the government not himself or the HMRC.

All he does is repeat the government idea of largely ignoring the need for a border in Ireland. A proposal, which the EU cannot accept while maintaining the integrity of the SM and CU and has therefore rejected.

Just on a point of note, all civil servants are duty bound to tell the truth when giving evidence to select committees. So whether they answer giving the government's position or their own expert opinion will depend largely on how the question is asked.

You should check the civil service code of conduct. While a civil servant giving evidence to a select committee should not lie nor are they speaking for themselves, they are speaking for the government. So whether they believe the answer is a workable solution or not does not matter it's government policy.

A serving civil servant cannot express a personal opinion to a select committee.

[Mrr T]

davepoth said:

Mrr T said:

It also helps if you understand what you are watching. The CEO of HMRC is a civil servant; when he answers questions, even to a select committee, he gives the view of the government not himself or the HMRC.

All he does is repeat the government idea of largely ignoring the need for a border in Ireland. A proposal, which the EU cannot accept while maintaining the integrity of the SM and CU and has therefore rejected.

Your assertion was that he didn't say it. Stop changing the subject.

Mrr T said:

The only problem is the head of the HMRC never said that. Stop making things up. It does brexit no help.

Edited by davepoth on Monday 7th May 11:41

The government has a policy of leaving the SM and the CU and having no border in Ireland. That is impossible unless you accept the water border solution or Ireland leaving the EU as well.

I and many others know it's impossible because we have taken time to research the subject. The UK government has proved it impossible because after 12 months they still cannot think of a solution which does not involve unicorns.

Get over it brexit is dead in the water unless the government wants to take the cliff edge option. I predicted some time ago the best way to not leave the EU was to vote leave and put the buffoons in charge.

[EddieSteadyGo]

Mrr T said:

EddieSteadyGo said:

Mrr T said:

It also helps if you understand what you are watching. The CEO of HMRC is a civil servant; when he answers questions, even to a select committee, he gives the view of the government not himself or the HMRC.

All he does is repeat the government idea of largely ignoring the need for a border in Ireland. A proposal, which the EU cannot accept while maintaining the integrity of the SM and CU and has therefore rejected.

Just on a point of note, all civil servants are duty bound to tell the truth when giving evidence to select committees. So whether they answer giving the government's position or their own expert opinion will depend largely on how the question is asked.

You should check the civil service code of conduct. While a civil servant giving evidence to a select committee should not lie nor are they speaking for themselves, they are speaking for the government. So whether they believe the answer is a workable solution or not does not matter it's government policy.

A serving civil servant cannot express a personal opinion to a select committee.

Hmmm.... why don't you post up the relevant bits of the code to prove your point.

I think you need to be more precise with your generalisation. The civil service is not the government. They are employed to implement the policy of the government.

So civil servants must tell the truth. And I believe they are also permitted to express an expert opinion if called to give evidence to a Select Committee.

Of course they can't just say they don't agree with a particular policy as that isn't their role. But neither do they have to just repeat government propaganda.

[davepoth]

Mrr T said:

The government has a policy of leaving the SM and the CU and having no border in Ireland. That is impossible unless you accept the water border solution or Ireland leaving the EU as well.

I and many others know it's impossible because we have taken time to research the subject. The UK government has proved it impossible because after 12 months they still cannot think of a solution which does not involve unicorns.

Get over it brexit is dead in the water unless the government wants to take the cliff edge option. I predicted some time ago the best way to not leave the EU was to vote leave and put the buffoons in charge.

Yes, many people think that's impossible - including the government.

https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/pm-speech-o...

It doesn't say "Border"; it says "Hard Border" - seven times.

I really think you need to put a bit more effort into checking your facts before posting things. Twice in one day is a little embarrassing, especially since the second one is to attempt to cover up the first.

[PurpleMoonlight]

Mrr T said:

The government has a policy of leaving the SM and the CU and having no border in Ireland. That is impossible unless you accept the water border solution or Ireland leaving the EU as well.

I and many others know it's impossible because we have taken time to research the subject. The UK government has proved it impossible because after 12 months they still cannot think of a solution which does not involve unicorns.

Get over it brexit is dead in the water unless the government wants to take the cliff edge option. I predicted some time ago the best way to not leave the EU was to vote leave and put the buffoons in charge.

The Government will eventually accept there needs to be maintained border with Ireland to achieve the 'will of the people'.

[Gloria Slap]

One minute civil servants are complicit in dishonest treasury forecasts.

The next they never stray from the truth.

I think JT was telling the truth but he did not say “NI border is no problem” or anything like it.

Not sure what Mays speech has to do with it - she even mentions the European Medical Agency and staying in it - it is like she is trolling brexiteers, given we’ve forced that agency to leave the UK. Its like a code saying “will the people not realise how daft this is? I talking about staying in something we’ll have to pay millions to move out of the UK taking jobs with it!”. Thats right we’re throwing away something we want to be part of. Deserves a Melchett Baaah!

[Mrr T]

davepoth said:

Mrr T said:

The government has a policy of leaving the SM and the CU and having no border in Ireland. That is impossible unless you accept the water border solution or Ireland leaving the EU as well.

I and many others know it's impossible because we have taken time to research the subject. The UK government has proved it impossible because after 12 months they still cannot think of a solution which does not involve unicorns.

Get over it brexit is dead in the water unless the government wants to take the cliff edge option. I predicted some time ago the best way to not leave the EU was to vote leave and put the buffoons in charge.

Yes, many people think that's impossible - including the government.

https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/pm-speech-o...

It doesn't say "Border"; it says "Hard Border" - seven times.

I really think you need to put a bit more effort into checking your facts before posting things. Twice in one day is a little embarrassing, especially since the second one is to attempt to cover up the first.

You have to love a TM speech lots of words, lots of hopes, lots of wishes, and lots of unicorns, just no practical method of making it work.

Now of cause the EU might agree to a new special relationship with the UK outside the existing frame work of rules. This would involve the EU amending many directives, changing regulations, and might even involve a treaty change.

That would work, mind you it would take years to implement. A treaty change would take the minimum of 5 years.

So brexit in 2030?

[davepoth]

Gloria Slap said:

One minute civil servants are complicit in dishonest treasury forecasts.

The next they never stray from the truth.

I think JT was telling the truth but he did not say “NI border is no problem” or anything like it.

Not sure what Mays speech has to do with it - she even mentions the European Medical Agency and staying in it - it is like she is trolling brexiteers, given we’ve forced that agency to leave the UK. Its like a code saying “will the people not realise how daft this is? I talking about staying in something we’ll have to pay millions to move out of the UK taking jobs with it!”. Thats right we’re throwing away something we want to be part of. Deserves a Melchett Baaah!

May's speech was to show that she said "No Hard Border", not "No Border". Now, I hate the Brexit language of hard and soft because it's so subjective, but the qualification suggests that there will in fact be a border - just as there is now.

As for the European Medical Agency, it's only right and proper it shouldn't be in London any more. However, there are compelling reasons to lend some sovereignty in medicines in order to be a part of the certification regime of that agency.

And before you start blowing raspberries, it's completely consistent to say so. The point is that if at some point in the future parliament decided it no longer wanted to be a part of it then parliament could make a decision and the UK would no longer be a part of it. Taking Back Control.

[don'tbesilly]

don'tbesilly said:

Mrr T said:

davepoth said:

I'm fully aware of who Lord Lamont is - I was once in a queue for a buffet with him, but that's a story for another day.

https://parliamentlive.tv/event/index/dfcd9653-da2...

Thompson starts at around 10:37. He's referring to the Customs Arrangement rather than the Partnership. 10:41.30 will give you the money shot.

Seriously, it helps to read things properly from time to time.

It also helps if you understand what you are watching. The CEO of HMRC is a civil servant; when he answers questions, even to a select committee, he gives the view of the government not himself or the HMRC.

All he does is repeat the government idea of largely ignoring the need for a border in Ireland. A proposal, which the EU cannot accept while maintaining the integrity of the SM and CU and has therefore rejected.

Jon Thompson has been called as a witness for the HMRC, as outlined below:


10:34:00
Witnesses: Jon Thompson, Chief Executive and Permanent Secretary, HM Revenue and Customs, John Bourne, Policy Director of Animal and Plant Health, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, Richard Everitt, Chairman, port of Dover, Richard Everitt, Head of Communications, Port of Dover and Richard Ballantyne, Chief Executive, British Ports Association

--

Can you produce some evidence to support you assertion that his statements to the committe are not the view of the HMRC ?

Any response Mrr T?

[Skywalker]

Can anyone who might class themselves as a remainer explain what the preferred outcome is if Brexit is torpedoed.

Is it a Hard Remain which will see the U.K. finally embrace full integration with the EU project including the US of Eu, take Schengen to our chest and accept the Euro?

Will it be a Soft Remain which will see the U.K. asking for the clock to be wound back and permission being regained for all those tedious opt outs?

Is a soft remain only as likely as unicorn poo now?

I would love to have a view of the alternative future which is being teased at or hoped for.