How do we think EU negotiations will go? (Vol 3)
Discussion
Gloria Slap said:
PurpleMoonlight said:
Is the commission not acting on instruction from the heads of state of the EU27 in relation to brexit?
Of course it is. It is only the Evil Union in the minds of haters.Gloria Slap said:
Ridgemont said:
Nothing taken back so far: a lot of attempts to tie our own hands about what we are requesting.
As I have made clear EFTA would work for me, but this process is making no deal more likely every day that passes. The parliamentary process is like some kind of weird wish machine that pays no attention whatsoever to what Barnier is saying. The worst thing the EU wants is an agreement failure invoked by parliament at the nth hour but it is quite happy to use its possibility to force us into the worst deal possible.
You seem afraid of no deal. I think you are right to be.As I have made clear EFTA would work for me, but this process is making no deal more likely every day that passes. The parliamentary process is like some kind of weird wish machine that pays no attention whatsoever to what Barnier is saying. The worst thing the EU wants is an agreement failure invoked by parliament at the nth hour but it is quite happy to use its possibility to force us into the worst deal possible.
Where does this leave the bravado of “no deal better than a poor deal” and “UK can survive on WTO we’re great!” etc.
It is encouraging that some, finally, are recognising the recklessness of a no deal exit.
Ironic that you now claim “there is no time for a ‘taking back control’ in parliament”. There never was enough time, as widely predicted. Stop blaming anyone other than the vote to leave for this totally inevitable outcome.
Edited by Gloria Slap on Tuesday 19th June 06:02
One means that we revert to WTO, however radio isotopes can still be moved, aircraft can still fly, etc. The other doesn't.
Gloria Slap said:
Ridgemont said:
Nothing taken back so far: a lot of attempts to tie our own hands about what we are requesting.
As I have made clear EFTA would work for me, but this process is making no deal more likely every day that passes. The parliamentary process is like some kind of weird wish machine that pays no attention whatsoever to what Barnier is saying. The worst thing the EU wants is an agreement failure invoked by parliament at the nth hour but it is quite happy to use its possibility to force us into the worst deal possible.
It is encouraging that some, finally, are recognising the recklessness of a no deal exit. As I have made clear EFTA would work for me, but this process is making no deal more likely every day that passes. The parliamentary process is like some kind of weird wish machine that pays no attention whatsoever to what Barnier is saying. The worst thing the EU wants is an agreement failure invoked by parliament at the nth hour but it is quite happy to use its possibility to force us into the worst deal possible.
Ironic that you now claim “there is no time for a ‘taking back control’ in parliament”. There never was enough time, as widely predicted. Stop blaming anyone other than the vote to leave for this totally inevitable outcome.
That would be like shackling Usain Bolt with a ball and chain for a 100m race and claiming it had no influence why he didn't get a medal or run sub 10 secs.
You don't want to Leave, but do you not appreciate are in the minority in a democracy and the vote was to leave. Under those circumstances why would you give Usain anything that hinders his performance. Would it not be better to chip in to buy him the worlds best running shoes...….or help advisie him of the best diet...…..or contribute to a big pallet of cash just beyond the line?
Why would you not be involved with maximising his performance and instead be involved with limiting and hindering it? And lastly why on earth would you then visit the race track to constantly parrot "stop blaming the ball and chain; Usain coming last was a totally inevitable outcome" ?
Edited by Crackie on Tuesday 19th June 07:09
Sway said:
There is a fundamental difference between 'no trade deal' (which is actually what the politicians have been talking about - see Davis' comments regarding a minimum technical agreement) and a true 'no agreement at all'.
One means that we revert to WTO, however radio isotopes can still be moved, aircraft can still fly, etc. The other doesn't.
Are you stating that Parliament only wants a meaningful vote on the trade element of the Withdrawal Agreement and not the whole lot?One means that we revert to WTO, however radio isotopes can still be moved, aircraft can still fly, etc. The other doesn't.
Crackie said:
The country was split roughly down the middle at referendum time - the vote to Leave just edged it. You appear to be saying that the remain side's constant squabbling and sniping from the side lines is making no difference to the current negotiations.
That would be like shackling Usain Bolt with a ball and chain for a 100m race and claiming it had no influence why he didn't get a medal or run sub 10 secs.
You don't want to Leave, but do you not appreciate are in the minority in a democracy and the vote was to leave. Under those circumstances why would you give Usain anything that hinders his performance. Would it not be better to chip in to buy him the worlds best running shoes...….or help advisie him of the best diet...…..or contribute to a big pallet of cash just beyond the line?
Why would you not be involved with maximising his performance and instead actively hindering it? And lastly why on earth would you then visit the race track to constantly parrot "stop blaming the ball and chain; Usain coming last was a totally inevitable outcome" ?
Once again, educate yourself and learn what living in a Democracy actually means...;)That would be like shackling Usain Bolt with a ball and chain for a 100m race and claiming it had no influence why he didn't get a medal or run sub 10 secs.
You don't want to Leave, but do you not appreciate are in the minority in a democracy and the vote was to leave. Under those circumstances why would you give Usain anything that hinders his performance. Would it not be better to chip in to buy him the worlds best running shoes...….or help advisie him of the best diet...…..or contribute to a big pallet of cash just beyond the line?
Why would you not be involved with maximising his performance and instead actively hindering it? And lastly why on earth would you then visit the race track to constantly parrot "stop blaming the ball and chain; Usain coming last was a totally inevitable outcome" ?
Edited by Crackie on Tuesday 19th June 07:05
Remainers recognise that 50m down the track, your Usain is going to fall off a cliff...the horizon line you see is a hazy mirage with a false finishing line - the Cake you see doesn't exist.
So Remainers are indeed trying to divert the track away from impending calamity.
You arrogantly assume Remainers must abandon their Beliefs to support your misguided vision. Living in a Democracy means they have every right to campaign and vote for what they believe is best. They absolutely do not have to fall in line with what you expect.
Vote Leave failed from the outset when it had zero plan to answer all the credible concerns and issues that have since arisen. This was predicted. You voted for this regardless. Your fault, no one elses.
PurpleMoonlight said:
Sway said:
There is a fundamental difference between 'no trade deal' (which is actually what the politicians have been talking about - see Davis' comments regarding a minimum technical agreement) and a true 'no agreement at all'.
One means that we revert to WTO, however radio isotopes can still be moved, aircraft can still fly, etc. The other doesn't.
Are you stating that Parliament only wants a meaningful vote on the trade element of the Withdrawal Agreement and not the whole lot?One means that we revert to WTO, however radio isotopes can still be moved, aircraft can still fly, etc. The other doesn't.
Yes, I think they do only want a vote on those bits, however they are indivisible from the rest in terms of the bilateral WA, so there's a very real risk now (far higher than before) of throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
That would be pretty bloody severe. For all parties.
p1stonhead said:
From what I understand the lords have tabled an amendment that means if we dont agree a deal, the MP's get to decide what happens next. How is this not sensible? May is not a dictator and shouldnt get to decide. If Corbyn was in charge, everyone would think this was essential.
May is not deciding, her power comes from the people who decided, why did a group of remained lords visit the EU? The point of a vote in the HOC is blatantly an attempt to overturn the referendum, there will be no deal, it's not in the EU's interest when there is a chance the referendum can be overturned.Coolbanana said:
Once again, educate yourself and learn what living in a Democracy actually means...;)
Remainers recognise that 50m down the track, your Usain is going to fall off a cliff...the horizon line you see is a hazy mirage with a false finishing line - the Cake you see doesn't exist.
So Remainers are indeed trying to divert the track away from impending calamity.
You arrogantly assume Remainers must abandon their Beliefs to support your misguided vision. Living in a Democracy means they have every right to campaign and vote for what they believe is best. They absolutely do not have to fall in line with what you expect.
Vote Leave failed from the outset when it had zero plan to answer all the credible concerns and issues that have since arisen. This was predicted. You voted for this regardless. Your fault, no one elses.
Remainers have an OPINION that Brexit is the wrong decision, that doesn't give them the right to override democracy.Remainers recognise that 50m down the track, your Usain is going to fall off a cliff...the horizon line you see is a hazy mirage with a false finishing line - the Cake you see doesn't exist.
So Remainers are indeed trying to divert the track away from impending calamity.
You arrogantly assume Remainers must abandon their Beliefs to support your misguided vision. Living in a Democracy means they have every right to campaign and vote for what they believe is best. They absolutely do not have to fall in line with what you expect.
Vote Leave failed from the outset when it had zero plan to answer all the credible concerns and issues that have since arisen. This was predicted. You voted for this regardless. Your fault, no one elses.
If the vote had been for Remain, would the Brexiters be entitled to get us out of the EU anyway to divert us away from calamity?
Sway said:
The trade and customs agreements are the only things the politicians are campaigning about.
Yes, I think they do only want a vote on those bits, however they are indivisible from the rest in terms of the bilateral WA, so there's a very real risk now (far higher than before) of throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
That would be pretty bloody severe. For all parties.
Interesting.Yes, I think they do only want a vote on those bits, however they are indivisible from the rest in terms of the bilateral WA, so there's a very real risk now (far higher than before) of throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
That would be pretty bloody severe. For all parties.
If the Government are told to by parliament to go back to the EU and ask for an extension for further negotiations, would the EU grant it?
Bet they would.
PRTVR said:
p1stonhead said:
From what I understand the lords have tabled an amendment that means if we dont agree a deal, the MP's get to decide what happens next. How is this not sensible? May is not a dictator and shouldnt get to decide. If Corbyn was in charge, everyone would think this was essential.
May is not deciding, her power comes from the people who decided, why did a group of remained lords visit the EU? The point of a vote in the HOC is blatantly an attempt to overturn the referendum, there will be no deal, it's not in the EU's interest when there is a chance the referendum can be overturned.Dr Jekyll said:
Remainers have an OPINION that Brexit is the wrong decision, that doesn't give them the right to override democracy.
If the vote had been for Remain, would the Brexiters be entitled to get us out of the EU anyway to divert us away from calamity?
Where does democracy start and end though?If the vote had been for Remain, would the Brexiters be entitled to get us out of the EU anyway to divert us away from calamity?
Should one decision be executed before anyone is allowed to try to change it?
PurpleMoonlight said:
Sway said:
The trade and customs agreements are the only things the politicians are campaigning about.
Yes, I think they do only want a vote on those bits, however they are indivisible from the rest in terms of the bilateral WA, so there's a very real risk now (far higher than before) of throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
That would be pretty bloody severe. For all parties.
Interesting.Yes, I think they do only want a vote on those bits, however they are indivisible from the rest in terms of the bilateral WA, so there's a very real risk now (far higher than before) of throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
That would be pretty bloody severe. For all parties.
If the Government are told to by parliament to go back to the EU and ask for an extension for further negotiations, would the EU grant it?
Bet they would.
"what bits don't you like about the current agreed offer? Oh yes, you can have those. Along with Four Freedoms. Oh, and subs without rebate. Ta."
Coolbanana said:
Once again, educate yourself and learn what living in a Democracy actually means...;) I chose to leave the country rather than take part.
Remainers fantasise that 50m down the track, your Usain is going to fall off a cliff...the horizon line you see is a hazy mirage with a false finishing line - the Cake you see doesn't exist.
So Remainers are indeed trying to prove they were right about impending calamity.
Remainers arrogantly assume their Beliefs override any other vision. Living in a Democracy means they have every right to campaign and vote for what they believe is best. They absolutely do not have to fall in line with what you expect. Their moral code trumps your own.
In Remainers heads, Vote Leave failed from the outset when it refused to try and predict an unpredictable future. Remainers wanted someone with a crystal ball, just like they assumed they knew exactly what the future of staying in the EU would be like. They voted for that regardless. Now for some reason, they'd rather the country burn than be prove wrong.
FTFY Remainers fantasise that 50m down the track, your Usain is going to fall off a cliff...the horizon line you see is a hazy mirage with a false finishing line - the Cake you see doesn't exist.
So Remainers are indeed trying to prove they were right about impending calamity.
Remainers arrogantly assume their Beliefs override any other vision. Living in a Democracy means they have every right to campaign and vote for what they believe is best. They absolutely do not have to fall in line with what you expect. Their moral code trumps your own.
In Remainers heads, Vote Leave failed from the outset when it refused to try and predict an unpredictable future. Remainers wanted someone with a crystal ball, just like they assumed they knew exactly what the future of staying in the EU would be like. They voted for that regardless. Now for some reason, they'd rather the country burn than be prove wrong.
Dr Jekyll said:
Remainers have an OPINION that Brexit is the wrong decision, that doesn't give them the right to override democracy.
If the vote had been for Remain, would the Brexiters be entitled to get us out of the EU anyway to divert us away from calamity?
The referendum doesn't give May carte blanche to do whatever she wants. If she offered the EU £500 billion to leave would that be acceptable to you?If the vote had been for Remain, would the Brexiters be entitled to get us out of the EU anyway to divert us away from calamity?
The referendum was poorly worded and the outcome is being badly executed. They never expected people to vote leave and our "leaders" are frozen like deer in headlights.
Burwood said:
We all know I’d parliament get a say we simply won’t leave. In fact we’ll stay in some more cosly purgatory. I’d like to see TM start dismantling the Lords. Follow through with the threat.
You said 'who cares if the economy tanks as long as we leave' to be fair, so anything you say now can be disregarded. You clearly dont give a damn about the country.PurpleMoonlight said:
Sway said:
Perhaps they would - after all, at that point of they'd be in complete control.
They pretty much are already.One party leaving an agreement with twenty seven others is always going to be at a disadvantage.
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