Poverty in Oldham
Discussion
crankedup said:
The minimum wage is far to low for a young family to be able to live to acceptable standards, hence the tax payer subsidy to boost that wage in certain circumstances. I have never supported such subsidies and believe that all employers need to pay a living wage.
I agree. We subsidise businesses in this country to a massive amount. Further, a lot of the money in subsidies got to cafes and such which are run by companies who post their profits elsewhere. I'd be happier if my taxes went in some other way, and not via such a blunt tool. crankedup said:
Indeed, taking this further it’s difficult to imagine that those fortunate / smart enough to receive massive salaries and huge bonus payments do not employ the services of brilliant accountants. On the basis that this is so it’s not to bigger step to consider that thier tax bill is minilmised to the absolute. All legal and fair under the current regulations of course, but it shoots holes in the argument about highly paid executives paying huge tax bills.
As we see all too frequently, there are many tax dodges. Every now and again some will be hit by HMRC, and then we find they are all at it, yet we have many who say these rich people pay as much tax as the rest of us. It must be only poor people who invest £millions in these tax scams.These high wages often go to off-shore accounts to be hidden from view. There are those who will say there are no holes out of reach of the tax man. These people want to read Private Eye. There's a famous person who 'invests' in a much criticised Russian bank, but I'm certain it is all above board.
A family friend had a daughter who was studying art. She wanted to go for a picture that had not been covered yet there it was, in a stately home not 40 miles away. She could visit any time they stipulated. Death duties on the painting had been ignored in order for his lordship to keep a number of paintings in the country for the benefit of us plebs. Yet, she found, after being told that visiting times were all booked up for years ahead, that no one, that's no one in this country, including said lord I bet, had seen the painting since the death of the current claimed owners. 'It happens a lot' said her tutor.
There will probably be a burglary some time. You get a lot of them.
No one cares. Not anyone in government it seems. Or those who excuse such matters.
If these people do pay all their taxes then who's keeping all these islands with more banks than people going? Tough question, I think not.
How many of the top 10% of earners were in the same category 10 years ago
How many of these people in poverty will be there in the next 10 years
I don't know the answer but I will guess that people move between earning categories quite regular through their lives.
How many of these people in poverty will be there in the next 10 years
I don't know the answer but I will guess that people move between earning categories quite regular through their lives.
Edited by voyds9 on Friday 23 March 21:52
Tim2k9 said:
The solution would be to stop all these payments...
IMO the less draconian solution is to raise the minimum wage, cut Corporation tax and remove in work benefits. That way corporations pay higher wages but lower tax, people earn more but get less in benefits and government pays less in benefits and takes less in tax... No one in full time work should need benefits to raise a family and no one should be able to live comfortably on benefits. Basically if you work you should be able to afford a considerably nicer life than those who can but don't. When I'm emperor it will be so.Derek Smith said:
As we see all too frequently, there are many tax dodges. Every now and again some will be hit by HMRC, and then we find they are all at it, yet we have many who say these rich people pay as much tax as the rest of us. It must be only poor people who invest £millions in these tax scams.
...
No one cares. Not anyone in government it seems. Or those who excuse such matters.
...
For a chap that speaks sense on some threads, you don't half come out with some half-baked simplistic b...
No one cares. Not anyone in government it seems. Or those who excuse such matters.
...
ks on others. Derek Smith said:
As we see all too frequently, there are many tax dodges. Every now and again some will be hit by HMRC, and then we find they are all at it, yet we have many who say these rich people pay as much tax as the rest of us. It must be only poor people who invest £millions in these tax scams.
Please can you enlighten us about the tax scams operated by high earning individuals on PAYE (which was of course the claim being made that you responded to)...?!
Derek Smith said:
These high wages often go to off-shore accounts to be hidden from view. There are those who will say there are no holes out of reach of the tax man. These people want to read Private Eye. There's a famous person who 'invests' in a much criticised Russian bank, but I'm certain it is all above board.
If these people do pay all their taxes then who's keeping all these islands with more banks than people going? Tough question, I think not.
People are quite reasonably able to take their post tax wages offshore, but will be required to pay taxes when it comes back onshore.If these people do pay all their taxes then who's keeping all these islands with more banks than people going? Tough question, I think not.
Edited by sidicks on Friday 23 March 22:13
Derek Smith said:
If these people do pay all their taxes then who's keeping all these islands with more banks than people going?
You seem to be stuck in about 1980. Google FATCA/CRS/AEoI. If the world really is as you imagine it did it not seem very strange that the Appleby/Paradise papers turned up a big fat terrabyte of fvck all? Edited by anonymous-user on Friday 23 March 22:42
voyds9 said:
How many of the top 10% of earners were in the same category 10 years ago
How many of these people in poverty will be there in the next 10 years
I don't know the answer but I will guess that people move between earning categories quite regular through their lives.
generally people stay in their grouping.How many of these people in poverty will be there in the next 10 years
I don't know the answer but I will guess that people move between earning categories quite regular through their lives.
Edited by voyds9 on Friday 23 March 21:52
The UK is also quite quite terrible for social mobility.
This was the first result I found, but am sure there will be more recent stuff: https://www.theguardian.com/business/2010/mar/10/o...
Our society is quite well set up to keep the rich rich and the poor poor.
From our grammar schools which require paid for tuition to have much of a chance, top tier universities that are far easier to get into from private schools, top positions in companies that are usually a bit of an old-boys club, ease of tax dodging by the very rich and avoidance of inheritance taxes etc etc. We just don't do social mobility.
Andehh said:
I wish they'd reveal the breakdown of the numbers.
£1100/month income, but struggling to feed the family? That doesn't seem like foods poverty levels? What am I missing?
1100 a month?!?!£1100/month income, but struggling to feed the family? That doesn't seem like foods poverty levels? What am I missing?
I wonder if the parent(s) go without cigarettes or booze.
Poverty is £70 a week on benefits.
jjlynn27 said:
Grim. 21st century.
Not sure what the solution is.
I'm not sure how meaningful something like that actually is? I can see a number of issues with it on the surface which may or may not be relevant, depending on how the findings have been derived.Not sure what the solution is.
1. What is actually being measured? Whilst it is well known that places like Cornwall and West Wales do definitely have people suffering from low incomes, they also have high pensioner populations who may look to be empoverished on an income perspective, but are actually comfortable because they've got next to no outgoings for housing, childcare and other areas.
2. Is being poor as a region necessarily a bad thing? Whilst London, Paris and Brussels all feature in the richest regions list, I would suggest that all three have areas within them of far more crushing poverty than any of the regions in the poorest regions list which are being disguised by the very wealthy in those regions.
3. Do the poverty rankings take into account benefit payments? Whilst an area may well be poor in terms of direct income, we live in a society which recognises that there are wealth inequalities across our nation and redistributes significant levels of wealth to mitigate against this. There's little point making a comparison if those benefit payments aren't included.
4. How do these rankings compare to other quality of life rankings? Even on a good salary, I'm already building plans to relocate from over-crowded, stupidly expensive & stressful Zone 6 suburbia to somewhere like Shropshire, which according to that list is one of the most impoverished regions in the EU. If I was on a low income, I cannot begin to imagine how I couldn't have a better quality of life somewhere like Shropshire compared to Surrey???
crankedup said:
98elise said:
sidicks said:
oyster said:
Aren't they paid as shares though?
I'd be amazed if that £110m in bonuses even comes anywhere near 45% tax.
You think shares don’t get taxed? I'd be amazed if that £110m in bonuses even comes anywhere near 45% tax.
When I was in investment banking my bonuses paid in shares were basically taxed as income, locked in for a minimum 3 year period. I think that’s normal?
Also how have they managed to keep these schemes secret? I employ an accountant and he's not promoting any of these clever schemes to me.
fblm said:
Derek Smith said:
If these people do pay all their taxes then who's keeping all these islands with more banks than people going?
You seem to be stuck in about 1980. Google FATCA/CRS/AEoI. If the world really is as you imagine it did it not seem very strange that the Appleby/Paradise papers turned up a big fat terrabyte of fvck all? Edited by fblm on Friday 23 March 22:42
There's exposés every week yet you feel that this was 1980? Really?
We all know one name, one of the richest men in this country, who has had court case after court case, who has been the subject of two EU enquiries, who boasts about it. But, I assume, that was all in 1980 was it? His argument is that everyone else is doing it, why shouldn't he. Perhaps he should have used some emoji or such as an argument.
MPs do it. We know this, that is if one reads up on the matter. There’s a favourite of PH who uses a Russian bank, one where the history is such that you’d need a lot of rolleseyes to come up with a suitable comment. Many feel that corrupt might cover it.
We hear of BBC staff being paid in tax avoiding ways. But that was 1980 I suppose.
We are told, by lots of people on here, of how wealth cascades from the top. And you seem to be suggesting that I'm the one talking nonsense.
Corruption is endemic. Read up on it. Buy those books which challenge your prejudices. If it was done in 1980, which it was, it is being done now.
CharlesdeGaulle said:
Derek Smith said:
As we see all too frequently, there are many tax dodges. Every now and again some will be hit by HMRC, and then we find they are all at it, yet we have many who say these rich people pay as much tax as the rest of us. It must be only poor people who invest £millions in these tax scams.
...
No one cares. Not anyone in government it seems. Or those who excuse such matters.
...
For a chap that speaks sense on some threads, you don't half come out with some half-baked simplistic b...
No one cares. Not anyone in government it seems. Or those who excuse such matters.
...
ks on others. You want a long discourse in support of it, a book or two perhaps? They are out there. Want it in digested form? Then Private Eye fortnight on fortnight will give an overview and a list that builds. Many of those in power, the ones with authority to challenge such practices, have their snouts in the trough.
Someone suggested that the money going into these tax havens is already taxed. And you suggest that my post was half-baked. There's no way anyone is that naive.
Is everything in the garden lovely and fair? No. Are there gaps in the system? Yes. Given that people will be aware of such gaps, is it reasonable to assume that those who can access them will not for some reason? Take a guess.
Do you think HMIC has it cracked? Do you think that these companies that are set up with bases in little islands in the West Indies are legit?
There was a fraud investigation that was stopped after a high, eye-wateringly high - sum was reached because the two forces involved, together with HMIC, could not afford to pursue the matter any further, at least that was the suggestion. They got some middle rankers and an investment company or two, but there was much more to come. Is it possible that those near the top were put off doing something similar?
Of course it goes on. It will continue to go on. Corruption breeds corruption. I'm certain, sure in fact, that the HMIC, uniquely amongst any institution, is entirely straight. However, they are also underfunded.
Voldemort said:
Ooh, get you! What salary are you paying for your accountant?
Or would it be similarly pretentious for me to say I employ a chimney sweep?
Come now, nobody employs a chimney sweep. Or would it be similarly pretentious for me to say I employ a chimney sweep?
One merely grabs an urchin from the streets and houses him under the stairs.
Probably from Oldham.
How about another grim graphic: Monaco is the richest and the most expensive city in the world, a subtropical tax haven which attracts extremely wealthy individuals from all over the planet. Neither London nor New York or Paris or Tokyo can be compared with it.
London is relatively poor! It's not fair!! Something must be done!!! Let's spread the jam out so everyone gets a strawberry seed to suck on.
The image posted earlier showing real poverty and pretend poverty side by side has a more important message than that selective northern Europe sob job.
London is relatively poor! It's not fair!! Something must be done!!! Let's spread the jam out so everyone gets a strawberry seed to suck on.
The image posted earlier showing real poverty and pretend poverty side by side has a more important message than that selective northern Europe sob job.
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