Alfie's Army

[Sway]

Wobbegong said:

I saw the coverage of them blockading the road outside the hospital, and attacking cars that were trying to get past. I feel for the parents of other children at the hospital, as well as the staff, who probably feel quite threatened by the mob outside.

To be honest, I do feel that they should be allowed to take him abroad if they feel that’s the best choice. The U.K. medical system has already decided there’s little that can be done, so what’s the harm in letting him go on the basis that it is acknowledged as at the risk of the parents?

I guess the trouble is that when you have cases like Ashya King, parents will understandably question the decisions of the professionals.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashya_King_case

https://news.sky.com/story/ashya-king-may-be-cance...

There's a fundamental difference - AK's parents wanted (and were able to fund) experimental treatment. That was refused, but happened anyway and was a success.

In this case, no one is offering any kind of treatment. Everyone, even the most charlatan, is saying that there is nothing that can be done.

All the Italians are offering is the same 'life' preservation through machine that Alder Hey have been doing. AH (plus several layers of courts) have decreed that this is not in the interests of the child, who should be allowed to pass on in peace.

The trigger for the 'Army', and the Dad's behaviour appears to be due to there not being a diagnosis of the cause - therefore in their heads, how can anyone say it's untreatable? However, when regardless of cause 70% of the brain has turned to mush frankly the why is irrelevant. Nothing is bringing that back.

[TwigtheWonderkid]

Wobbegong said:

To be honest, I do feel that they should be allowed to take him abroad if they feel that’s the best choice. The U.K. medical system has already decided there’s little that can be done, so what’s the harm in letting him go on the basis that it is acknowledged as at the risk of the parents?

The harm is it may cause him undue suffering/pain/distress. The needs of the child are more important than the wants of the parents. If medical experts who, unlike you or me, actually know about this stuff, have decided that he should not be moved, then he stays put. And everyone else, from the parents to the pope, can go fk themselves.

[Type R Tom]

Will the Italians send the UK the bill for the treatment?

[Europa1]

Wobbegong said:

To be honest, I do feel that they should be allowed to take him abroad if they feel that’s the best choice.

And therein lies much of the root cause of the misunderstanding prevalent in Alfie's Army: this case is not about what the parents want or feel; it's about the rights of, and what is best for, the child.

[andy_s]

Dibble said:

Sa Calobra said:

DELETED: Comment made by a member who's account has been deleted.

Probably posted by his aid/secretary. I doubt he's that red-topped not to have read the judgements.

A quick bit of Googling indicates he’s a “pro life” Roman Catholic, which would explain the tweet.

Dear Lord...

[TwigtheWonderkid]

Type R Tom said:

Will the Italians send the UK the bill for the treatment?

The hospital isn't in Italy, it's in the Vatican, which is a different country.

[TurbosSuck]

Since this has become a 'thing' now, how long before:

A) Someone breaks into a hospital to 'rescue' a child, perhaps making off with the wrong one?
B) A hospital gets smashed up / burned down, or a doctor or nurse gets attacked?
C) Someone tries to lobotomise their own child / relative for money and fame?

[ucb]

TwigtheWonderkid said:

Wobbegong said:

To be honest, I do feel that they should be allowed to take him abroad if they feel that’s the best choice. The U.K. medical system has already decided there’s little that can be done, so what’s the harm in letting him go on the basis that it is acknowledged as at the risk of the parents?

The harm is it may cause him undue suffering/pain/distress. The needs of the child are more important than the wants of the parents. If medical experts who, unlike you or me, actually know about this stuff, have decided that he should not be moved, then he stays put. And everyone else, from the parents to the pope, can go fk themselves.

Sorry to be pedantic, but the medical experts do not determine whether he can be moved. It is the judiciary that take the decision

[Rtype]

I have read the Judgement from start to finish and must admit that the judge is incredibly sensitive and am pleased that the hospital was, however, what was of greater interest to me was of the length of time attributed to emotional judgement, which I know does not and cannot come into a judgement, however, this is a child and to use an overused comment; No parent should outlive their child.

I have no doubt that the experts are 100% correct and this is a dreadful position to be in. I agree that I think that the father and mother are delaying the grief which is around the corner.

I think that some of the comments on here are, actually, incredibly insensitive, blunt and are formed from a "distance" to the situation.

I know this isn't mumsnet and that this is an entirely dreadful situation, albeit one of natures happening, however, this isn't reddit either.

But, if this were my son, I couldn't not hold him, I couldn't allow him to drift off into eternity without trying any and every avenue, whether this be life support for a few more weeks or, whatever stupid treatment comes around the corner. It would be futile and, I suppose, selfish.

My normal factual approach would be completely blinkered by my emotion. I agree that ultimately, poor Alfie will either die in hospital or at home. But should someone be offering an alternative would you not want to try to take that final option - if you have read the judgement, this little boy was not born like this but I believe at approximately 4 weeks started to deteriorate.

I think that should the risk be transferred to the parents that they be given the option to make a choice - not removed from a choice completely.

[Mr Pointy]

And your emtional investment is exactly why the decison would be taken out of your hands & made by a judge. What you want is not relevant. What is best for your child is all that matters.

[TwigtheWonderkid]

ucb said:

TwigtheWonderkid said:

Wobbegong said:

To be honest, I do feel that they should be allowed to take him abroad if they feel that’s the best choice. The U.K. medical system has already decided there’s little that can be done, so what’s the harm in letting him go on the basis that it is acknowledged as at the risk of the parents?

The harm is it may cause him undue suffering/pain/distress. The needs of the child are more important than the wants of the parents. If medical experts who, unlike you or me, actually know about this stuff, have decided that he should not be moved, then he stays put. And everyone else, from the parents to the pope, can go fk themselves.

Sorry to be pedantic, but the medical experts do not determine whether he can be moved. It is the judiciary that take the decision

Well to be even more pedantic, it's normally medical experts, because the decision they make isn't usually challenged.

But in this case, fair enough. If a judge, having listened to the opinion of medical experts, who, unlike you or me, actually know about this stuff, has adjudicated that he should not be moved, then he stays put. And everyone else, from the parents to the pope, can go fk themselves.

[TwigtheWonderkid]

Rtype said:

I think that should the risk be transferred to the parents that they be given the option to make a choice - not removed from a choice completely.

if it was the other way around, there was effective treatment to make him healthy again, but the parents were refusing it due to religious beliefs, would you still think the parents should have the choice, or should the courts step in and take over the decision making? Assuming you'd want the courts to overrule the stupid parents, I can't see why this case is any different.

[pavarotti1980]

Rtype said:

I have read the Judgement from start to finish and must admit that the judge is incredibly sensitive and am pleased that the hospital was, however, what was of greater interest to me was of the length of time attributed to emotional judgement, which I know does not and cannot come into a judgement, however, this is a child and to use an overused comment; No parent should outlive their child.

I have no doubt that the experts are 100% correct and this is a dreadful position to be in. I agree that I think that the father and mother are delaying the grief which is around the corner.

I think that some of the comments on here are, actually, incredibly insensitive, blunt and are formed from a "distance" to the situation.

I know this isn't mumsnet and that this is an entirely dreadful situation, albeit one of natures happening, however, this isn't reddit either.

But, if this were my son, I couldn't not hold him, I couldn't allow him to drift off into eternity without trying any and every avenue, whether this be life support for a few more weeks or, whatever stupid treatment comes around the corner. It would be futile and, I suppose, selfish.

My normal factual approach would be completely blinkered by my emotion. I agree that ultimately, poor Alfie will either die in hospital or at home. But should someone be offering an alternative would you not want to try to take that final option - if you have read the judgement, this little boy was not born like this but I believe at approximately 4 weeks started to deteriorate.

I think that should the risk be transferred to the parents that they be given the option to make a choice - not removed from a choice completely.

The treatment offered by Bambino Gesu is no different to that which was provided by Alder Hey, they have just said they wouldnt turn off the machines but just continue with palliative care whereas Alder Hey want to turn it off in the best interests fo the child to prevent further harm and suffering

[Rtype]

You are all correct and it is an emotional response rather than a factual.

I agree also that this is why it would be taken out of my control, due to my emotion and cannot begrudge the UK justice system for doing so and they have been so very fair in this instance, albeit, it would take a while.

I cannot lie either, I believe if I were to be in the same situation as the parents of Alfie. I, personally, if my son (which I am so grateful is happy and healthy) was almost certainly unable to feel pain (whilst they cannot dismiss this I agree) I would want to continue the palliative care in Rome. It also stated in the judgement that the hospital in Rome stated that Alfie would return home after a period of time for nature to run its course.

Whilst the hospital agreed is a continuation of palliative care. If, faced with all of the medical evidence, I would wish to spend every available moment he has left and if that possibility could be extended by 2 weeks, I would take it.

My comments I know are not cohesive, but, ever since becoming a parent I feel extreme empathy towards this family and would not wish to be in their shoes and do not wish them to be obstructed.

Ultimately, it is an emotional ramble which prompted me to respond based on a few select comments on here so apologies!

[Rtype]

Nanook said:

Rtype said:

You are all correct and it is an emotional response rather than a factual.

I agree also that this is why it would be taken out of my control, due to my emotion and cannot begrudge the UK justice system for doing so and they have been so very fair in this instance, albeit, it would take a while.

I cannot lie either, I believe if I were to be in the same situation as the parents of Alfie. I, personally, if my son (which I am so grateful is happy and healthy) was almost certainly unable to feel pain (whilst they cannot dismiss this I agree) I would want to continue the palliative care in Rome. It also stated in the judgement that the hospital in Rome stated that Alfie would return home after a period of time for nature to run its course.

Whilst the hospital agreed is a continuation of palliative care. If, faced with all of the medical evidence, I would wish to spend every available moment he has left and if that possibility could be extended by 2 weeks, I would take it.

My comments I know are not cohesive, but, ever since becoming a parent I feel extreme empathy towards this family and would not wish to be in their shoes and do not wish them to be obstructed.

Ultimately, it is an emotional ramble which prompted me to respond based on a few select comments on here so apologies!

The child is having regular seizures, and is suffering.

It's rather selfish to keep him alive for an extra couple of weeks just to make yourself feel better, don't you think?

Nanook,

Have you read the judgement or just feel the need to disparage my comments?

He has reactive seizures to certain forms of movement which can be shortened in time but all but confirmed to be of no actual measurable distress to the child. Ultimately any sensory neurones to the brain have been "completely deleted" from his brain meaning in my limited medical understanding no communication of pain.

It may be unpleasant to watch as an observer I agree but watching your son die after fighting so hard to be allowed just a bit of extra time would be worse.

I stated in my earlier comments this was a selfish opinion if you bothered to read any of them.

[J4CKO]

Is there some gene that prevents people from accepting the facts, the poor little lad is terminally ill and will never have quality of life, god only iknow what his day to day existence is like.

There seems to be some idea that the medical profession can work miracles, ok, in allot of cases they can, and do, have seen it numerous times.

Trouble is, some seem to expect to be,

Given antibiotics for a cold.
Able to carry on scoffing and boozing when Diabetic
Patched up when they are stupid/drunk and be dicks.

Etc, then get ratty and petulant when the docs tell them the reality, was in the nursing home where my gran is the other day, there was a family stood round a woman of maybe late seventies, who was morbidly obese and permanently on oxygen, she looked really ill, head lolling, as in not long to go, not responding to the seven or so folk that descended to visit her. Heard them talking "She will be fine", "She is alright", "I think she smiled at me", er no, I am not a doctor but she looked like she was going to pass within hours.


Calling doctors murderers for doing their jobs, this is like when people sue places for inuring themselves because they can, or claiming for food poisoning when they werent ill, its all smiles when they get a few quid, but then they moan that they cant do stuff in future "Health and safety gone mad I tell you" and if you ruin a doctors career, he or she may not be there next time or they wont intervene lest they get sues when you are choking in a restaurant.

Sometimes doctors get it wrong, have seen it and the fact the guy and his parent were switched on helped, we all have a stake in our own health and we should be able to question but mob rule, fk that, did they hear he was under the care of a Pediatrician or something ?

[wolf1]

The parents have been hoodwinked into unknowingly being puppets for those with ulterior motives virtually from the start.

[TwigtheWonderkid]

J4CKO said:

There seems to be some idea that the medical profession can work miracles, ok, in allot of cases they can, and do, have seen it numerous times.

No they can't and no you haven't.

They can do what's in the realms of current medical science in combination with their individual abilities. That's all, and that's all we can expect.

[Gameface]

Possibly at the beginning but now the father is milking it for all he's worth.

He's a stabby scumbag. This is his lottery win.

At least the mum is more dignified, it seems.

Edited by Gameface on Wednesday 25th April 16:38

[Biker 1]

Gameface said:

At least the mum is more dignified, it seems.

I really don't know what to make of her - she comes across as being way out of her depth & perhaps being bullied into whatever the father sees fit. She seems utterly helpless.