Discussion
It appears that the practice varies between hospitals.
East Surrey, where my daughter was born this year, she was born at 5am but we didn't take her home until 6pm the next day. As I mentioned, some were being kept in longer waiting on test results etc but no other concerns,
I was born in 1985, as was my wife, and both our mums said they stayed in for a week with us, and that was "the norm" back then in London - but with my sister born in 1989, she was out the next day as well having been born in the afternoon. Some were in even longer.
However - this is all slightly beside the point. The information that we have is that Alfie was born healthy and released from hospital after 3 days. That isn't uncommon even if it isn't the norm, but faced with no other information there's no reason to consider that this is an indication of something being wrong with him at that time. At some point - he's become severely ill and has now passed away. Whether that is linked to his slightly extended stay in hospital after birth is pretty much irrelevant because thousands of children are kept in for a few days every year
East Surrey, where my daughter was born this year, she was born at 5am but we didn't take her home until 6pm the next day. As I mentioned, some were being kept in longer waiting on test results etc but no other concerns,
I was born in 1985, as was my wife, and both our mums said they stayed in for a week with us, and that was "the norm" back then in London - but with my sister born in 1989, she was out the next day as well having been born in the afternoon. Some were in even longer.
However - this is all slightly beside the point. The information that we have is that Alfie was born healthy and released from hospital after 3 days. That isn't uncommon even if it isn't the norm, but faced with no other information there's no reason to consider that this is an indication of something being wrong with him at that time. At some point - he's become severely ill and has now passed away. Whether that is linked to his slightly extended stay in hospital after birth is pretty much irrelevant because thousands of children are kept in for a few days every year
Timmy40 said:
I can only speak from experience, but with each of ours ( and same with our friends ) provided Mum is doing OK, you go home the same day as the birth. Signed that petition too, I commented on a post on facebook about that (i.e. would prefer no balloon release as it kills loads of wildlife etc) and got less abuse than I expected....
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2018/apr/30/al...
While not a fan of The Guardian's politics, I do have respect for their more objective (and investigative) journalism. While I cannot imagine the torment of the parents in this case, they may have been «exploited» by special interest groups?
Worth a read.
While not a fan of The Guardian's politics, I do have respect for their more objective (and investigative) journalism. While I cannot imagine the torment of the parents in this case, they may have been «exploited» by special interest groups?
Worth a read.
g3org3y said:
A colleague of mine (GP) posted this on Facebook a few days ago in respose to the hysteria and misinformation posted by Alfie's Army. Pretty much nails it imo.
To demonstrate the mentality of Alfie's Army, my colleague has started receiving death threats over this post. A doctor said:
So far I've been quiet over the tragic case of Alfie Evans, but as a doctor, a father of four and a former intensive care doctor I feel I have a duty to speak.
Firstly, no child is the property of their parents. As parents our own anguish, emotion and needs are entirely and utterly secondary to the best interests of our children. We do not own them. We can't make demands on what happens to them like a piece of furniture. Furthermore, as parents we are naturally conflicted in deciding what is best for them in times of dire crisis. Because of the unconditional love we have for our children we will naturally cling to hope even where there is none. Despite being a doctor I find it impossible to objectively medically assess my own children, because I'm their Daddy, not their doctor.
Secondly, doctors and nurses act in the best interests of their patients - not the parents, not the press, not some feral "army," not politicians, not the Pope, the PATIENT. The first line of the modern Hippocratic Oath is "Make the care of your patient your first concern." The staff at Alder Hey were working under incredibly difficult conditions even before a mob started accusing them of murder. Now their job is impossible.
Thirdly, Alfie Evans has an irreversible, catastrophic degenerative neurological disorder with no hope of recovery. The brain does not regenerate. Respiratory function and other basic physiological reflexes are literally, neurologically nothing whatsoever to do with sentience, consciousness or self awareness. Death, surrounded by those who love Alfie, peacefully, quietly, in dignity is in his best interests, this has been affirmed not just by his doctors but by the highest Court in the land. Having pictures of him in intensive care plastered all over the press, or being used as a political and religious football, or having people scream outside his hospital room is NOT in his best interests.
Finally, the behaviour of "Alfie's Army" is, to be frank, disgusting. Threatening doctors and nurses by name such that they fear for their lives is disgusting. Threatening to storm a children's hospital is disgusting. Threatening to pull fire alarms when other children are on the operating table having life saving surgery is worse than disgusting. Piggy-backing onto the grief of the parents of a baby you have never even met is flagrant grief tourism and an ultimate act of selfishness. Furthermore, veiling such aggressive and malignant behaviour behind a pretense of faith could not be further from what it means to be a Christian.
If you believe there is a conspiracy among the medical profession, or a cover up, or you believe parents own their children, or that the parents' feelings are more important than the dignity of their child, or if you are a member of Alfie's army then please do me a favour and remove yourself from my friends list.
God Bless you, Alfie.
Firstly, no child is the property of their parents. As parents our own anguish, emotion and needs are entirely and utterly secondary to the best interests of our children. We do not own them. We can't make demands on what happens to them like a piece of furniture. Furthermore, as parents we are naturally conflicted in deciding what is best for them in times of dire crisis. Because of the unconditional love we have for our children we will naturally cling to hope even where there is none. Despite being a doctor I find it impossible to objectively medically assess my own children, because I'm their Daddy, not their doctor.
Secondly, doctors and nurses act in the best interests of their patients - not the parents, not the press, not some feral "army," not politicians, not the Pope, the PATIENT. The first line of the modern Hippocratic Oath is "Make the care of your patient your first concern." The staff at Alder Hey were working under incredibly difficult conditions even before a mob started accusing them of murder. Now their job is impossible.
Thirdly, Alfie Evans has an irreversible, catastrophic degenerative neurological disorder with no hope of recovery. The brain does not regenerate. Respiratory function and other basic physiological reflexes are literally, neurologically nothing whatsoever to do with sentience, consciousness or self awareness. Death, surrounded by those who love Alfie, peacefully, quietly, in dignity is in his best interests, this has been affirmed not just by his doctors but by the highest Court in the land. Having pictures of him in intensive care plastered all over the press, or being used as a political and religious football, or having people scream outside his hospital room is NOT in his best interests.
Finally, the behaviour of "Alfie's Army" is, to be frank, disgusting. Threatening doctors and nurses by name such that they fear for their lives is disgusting. Threatening to storm a children's hospital is disgusting. Threatening to pull fire alarms when other children are on the operating table having life saving surgery is worse than disgusting. Piggy-backing onto the grief of the parents of a baby you have never even met is flagrant grief tourism and an ultimate act of selfishness. Furthermore, veiling such aggressive and malignant behaviour behind a pretense of faith could not be further from what it means to be a Christian.
If you believe there is a conspiracy among the medical profession, or a cover up, or you believe parents own their children, or that the parents' feelings are more important than the dignity of their child, or if you are a member of Alfie's army then please do me a favour and remove yourself from my friends list.
God Bless you, Alfie.
We've advised him to screenshot and inform the police.
These individuals need to learn their actions are not without consequence. g3org3y said:
To demonstrate the mentality of Alfie's Army, my colleague has started receiving death threats over this post.
We've advised him to screenshot and inform the police. These individuals need to learn their actions are not without consequence.
Absolutely. Parents need to remember that they have no rights over their children, but they have many responsibilities to them. Parents often forget this.We've advised him to screenshot and inform the police.
These individuals need to learn their actions are not without consequence. g3org3y said:
g3org3y said:
A colleague of mine (GP) posted this on Facebook a few days ago in respose to the hysteria and misinformation posted by Alfie's Army. Pretty much nails it imo.
To demonstrate the mentality of Alfie's Army, my colleague has started receiving death threats over this post. A doctor said:
So far I've been quiet over the tragic case of Alfie Evans, but as a doctor, a father of four and a former intensive care doctor I feel I have a duty to speak.
Firstly, no child is the property of their parents. As parents our own anguish, emotion and needs are entirely and utterly secondary to the best interests of our children. We do not own them. We can't make demands on what happens to them like a piece of furniture. Furthermore, as parents we are naturally conflicted in deciding what is best for them in times of dire crisis. Because of the unconditional love we have for our children we will naturally cling to hope even where there is none. Despite being a doctor I find it impossible to objectively medically assess my own children, because I'm their Daddy, not their doctor.
Secondly, doctors and nurses act in the best interests of their patients - not the parents, not the press, not some feral "army," not politicians, not the Pope, the PATIENT. The first line of the modern Hippocratic Oath is "Make the care of your patient your first concern." The staff at Alder Hey were working under incredibly difficult conditions even before a mob started accusing them of murder. Now their job is impossible.
Thirdly, Alfie Evans has an irreversible, catastrophic degenerative neurological disorder with no hope of recovery. The brain does not regenerate. Respiratory function and other basic physiological reflexes are literally, neurologically nothing whatsoever to do with sentience, consciousness or self awareness. Death, surrounded by those who love Alfie, peacefully, quietly, in dignity is in his best interests, this has been affirmed not just by his doctors but by the highest Court in the land. Having pictures of him in intensive care plastered all over the press, or being used as a political and religious football, or having people scream outside his hospital room is NOT in his best interests.
Finally, the behaviour of "Alfie's Army" is, to be frank, disgusting. Threatening doctors and nurses by name such that they fear for their lives is disgusting. Threatening to storm a children's hospital is disgusting. Threatening to pull fire alarms when other children are on the operating table having life saving surgery is worse than disgusting. Piggy-backing onto the grief of the parents of a baby you have never even met is flagrant grief tourism and an ultimate act of selfishness. Furthermore, veiling such aggressive and malignant behaviour behind a pretense of faith could not be further from what it means to be a Christian.
If you believe there is a conspiracy among the medical profession, or a cover up, or you believe parents own their children, or that the parents' feelings are more important than the dignity of their child, or if you are a member of Alfie's army then please do me a favour and remove yourself from my friends list.
God Bless you, Alfie.
Firstly, no child is the property of their parents. As parents our own anguish, emotion and needs are entirely and utterly secondary to the best interests of our children. We do not own them. We can't make demands on what happens to them like a piece of furniture. Furthermore, as parents we are naturally conflicted in deciding what is best for them in times of dire crisis. Because of the unconditional love we have for our children we will naturally cling to hope even where there is none. Despite being a doctor I find it impossible to objectively medically assess my own children, because I'm their Daddy, not their doctor.
Secondly, doctors and nurses act in the best interests of their patients - not the parents, not the press, not some feral "army," not politicians, not the Pope, the PATIENT. The first line of the modern Hippocratic Oath is "Make the care of your patient your first concern." The staff at Alder Hey were working under incredibly difficult conditions even before a mob started accusing them of murder. Now their job is impossible.
Thirdly, Alfie Evans has an irreversible, catastrophic degenerative neurological disorder with no hope of recovery. The brain does not regenerate. Respiratory function and other basic physiological reflexes are literally, neurologically nothing whatsoever to do with sentience, consciousness or self awareness. Death, surrounded by those who love Alfie, peacefully, quietly, in dignity is in his best interests, this has been affirmed not just by his doctors but by the highest Court in the land. Having pictures of him in intensive care plastered all over the press, or being used as a political and religious football, or having people scream outside his hospital room is NOT in his best interests.
Finally, the behaviour of "Alfie's Army" is, to be frank, disgusting. Threatening doctors and nurses by name such that they fear for their lives is disgusting. Threatening to storm a children's hospital is disgusting. Threatening to pull fire alarms when other children are on the operating table having life saving surgery is worse than disgusting. Piggy-backing onto the grief of the parents of a baby you have never even met is flagrant grief tourism and an ultimate act of selfishness. Furthermore, veiling such aggressive and malignant behaviour behind a pretense of faith could not be further from what it means to be a Christian.
If you believe there is a conspiracy among the medical profession, or a cover up, or you believe parents own their children, or that the parents' feelings are more important than the dignity of their child, or if you are a member of Alfie's army then please do me a favour and remove yourself from my friends list.
God Bless you, Alfie.
We've advised him to screenshot and inform the police.
These individuals need to learn their actions are not without consequence. These people need sterilising. Oh, and threats to kill is a series crime, one which would be a travesty if the police don't act on.
I was trying to explain this to a person the other day who was saying the parents knew best, Dr's playing god, etc.
I asked a question if a child was going to die because a parent who was Jehovah's refused treatment would the hospital be right in ignoring the parent. The answer was a resounding yes, but she still could not see the same rules apply in this case.
Sadly the child had no hope, every Dr agreed that so did the courts, yet the baying mob knew better, apparently and as others interfered with offers of keeping on a ventilator until the other organs died, the parents became pawns in other peoples games.
The result of this is that other parents will be manipulated as they seek a miracle and hospitals will become ever more locked down to stop the morons from seeing a bandwagon to jump on.
I asked a question if a child was going to die because a parent who was Jehovah's refused treatment would the hospital be right in ignoring the parent. The answer was a resounding yes, but she still could not see the same rules apply in this case.
Sadly the child had no hope, every Dr agreed that so did the courts, yet the baying mob knew better, apparently and as others interfered with offers of keeping on a ventilator until the other organs died, the parents became pawns in other peoples games.
The result of this is that other parents will be manipulated as they seek a miracle and hospitals will become ever more locked down to stop the morons from seeing a bandwagon to jump on.
g3org3y said:
To demonstrate the mentality of Alfie's Army, my colleague has started receiving death threats over this post.
We've advised him to screenshot and inform the police. These individuals need to learn their actions are not without consequence.
Unfortunately the actions of a certain group are, in the main, without consequence (at least from the law).We've advised him to screenshot and inform the police.
These individuals need to learn their actions are not without consequence. Its another example of how dangerous and toxic social media can be. Getting a mob together seems to be one click away these days.
In a way im glad alfie has passed, nothing can be done for the poor chap and the whole palava and hysteria over his situation was disgusting. It was a day out for the scrotes and those protesting for the sake of protesting.
Not one of the staff members deserved the nonsense that was being shouted at them outside their place of work, How they kept amicable with the dad with the s
t he was spouting is beyond me. True proffessionals.
In a way im glad alfie has passed, nothing can be done for the poor chap and the whole palava and hysteria over his situation was disgusting. It was a day out for the scrotes and those protesting for the sake of protesting.
Not one of the staff members deserved the nonsense that was being shouted at them outside their place of work, How they kept amicable with the dad with the s
t he was spouting is beyond me. True proffessionals. The Solicitors' Regulatory Authority is having a look at the Christian Legal Centre. I hope that the Bar Standards Board will have a look at Paul Diamond, but I do not hold my breath on that one.
https://www.theguardian.com/law/2018/may/02/legal-...
https://www.theguardian.com/law/2018/may/02/legal-...
dazwalsh said:
Its another example of how dangerous and toxic social media can be. Getting a mob together seems to be one click away these days.
Yep. The behaviour of many of these "supporters" has been simple thuggery and utterly disgraceful.Without the curse of social media, I doubt there would have been anywhere near this level of mindless hate and vitriol. Social Media hands a megaphone to idiots and encourages the worst aspects of mob mentality.
Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff