Multiculturalsim

[Hayek]

captain_cynic said:

Hayek said:

TTwiggy said:

del mar said:

You will get the "dreaming of 1950's utopia" thrown at you, which may have been better or worse.

There is the assumption that change is always for the better, looking at some of the Multicultural areas of our towns and cities I am not sure it has been.

I can't help thinking that you're confusing multiculturalism with 'ghettoisation'. When I think of multiculturalism I think of examples like Chinatown, the 'Curry Mile' and the Nottinghill Carnival. You're describing poor areas full of poor migrants who are having issues with integration. Multiculturalism is about positive influences of other cultures on that of our own.

Curry mile etc is integration, not multiculturalism.

And such integration is the end game of multiculturalism. The UK promotes a society where such things are not just possible, but commonplace.

Can be the end game.

[Mothersruin]

Coolbanana said:

del mar said:

You will get the "dreaming of 1950's utopia" thrown at you, which may have been better or worse.

There is the assumption that change is always for the better, looking at some of the Multicultural areas of our towns and cities I am not sure it has been.

It takes all sorts

Providing you do not resort to violent means to express your preferences and to enforce your bigotry and xenophobia, then having a different viewpoint is perfectly fine.

You are clearly more 'Alf Garnett' than an enlightened, tolerant individual who embraces difference, but that is your right. While you may consider certain individuals - or Cultures - as deplorable, unskilled, uneducated, the same might be cast in your direction too by those who have achieved more with similar advantages growing up.

Still, you have the right to campaign for Change if you do not like something, it is a Democracy, after all. Personally, I disagree with you, I oppose your viewpoint and challenge your statistics as mere thinly-veiled Fascist Propaganda; hugely magnified to make it seem far more significant than it really is by scared, insecure people who struggle with evolution within their own Country and want an insular, inward-looking Society, devolved from the rest of the World.

If you want the UK to degenerate to your ideals then by all means, vote for that. Hopefully, it'll never come to pass, but who knows, hey?

Facist Propaganda?

[captain_cynic]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

But what is British culture?

Beyond the queuing and saying hello to people in the street (this one is pretty common the world over), what is quintessentially British? I think that one is hard to answer because Britain is made up of several distinct cultures, Scottish, Welsh, Irish and English, we can subdivide them again, Newcastle is different to Devon which is different to Essex. West coast Scots (Glasgow) are different to eastern ones (Edinburgh) and those in the highlands are different again. So what is British culture?

However, when I think of the worlds most exported cultures, the UK is number 2 (after the Americans). Outside of Europe (which I admit, I haven't travelled extensively) they tend to go mad for British things, union flags, English pubs, Minis, Minis with union flags on the roof. Admittedly this ends up being quite stereotypical (I.E. Beefeaters) but sometimes I think Americans have more interest in the British royals than the Brits do.

As for culture surviving... Well any culture that cant survive on it's own merits deserves to die. This means that a culture must accept change. I think that British culture is thriving where many European ones are declining because the British are adaptable where as others are refusing to let go of outdated ideas.

[ape x]

The problem is, to me at least, that some people expect that for 'immigrants' or Black people or Pakistani Muslims to have 100% perfect people within it.
As soon as say 3% are into being a bit dodgy, or stealing or grooming girls from care homes in the kebab shops etc it's thrown back in faces of the rest...

Now in the UK many have their opinions on the dodgy white English or the white underclass, but we don't say that is all white English because we accept not all of us will fit into what we call a morally and civilized notion...

So for starters accepting like any group of people so will be Doctors, teachers, poets, Artists...and bunch will be dodgy and not very pleasant people...

Expecting 100% of any non white or immigrant group to be perfect is impossible because our home grown lot are not all 100% perfect...

Having some bad experiences with say a Pakistani Muslim can't mean you have an inherent mistrust of the rest you meet?

[Countdown]

del mar said:

Alpinestars said:

And what about the good old British obsession with getting pissed on a Saturday night - good culture or bad?

Going back to my youth in a small "village/town" in the North East.

Friday night was always men going to the pubs after work.

Saturday night was for the wives.

I liked that, I knew where I stood - Friday always had more problems......

You didn't really answer the question. is getting pissed up on a Friday/Saturday (or indeed any night of the week) "good" culture or bad?

[grumbledoak]

TTwiggy said:

I can't help thinking that you're confusing multiculturalism with 'ghettoisation'.

That is exactly what multiculturalism is - immigrant groups living separate lives, keeping all aspects of their prior lives unchanged. You are, seemingly without irony, attempting to redefine the spin word for ghettos.

[s1962a]

captain_cynic said:

anonymous said:

[redacted]

But what is British culture?

Beyond the queuing and saying hello to people in the street (this one is pretty common the world over), what is quintessentially British? I think that one is hard to answer because Britain is made up of several distinct cultures, Scottish, Welsh, Irish and English, we can subdivide them again, Newcastle is different to Devon which is different to Essex. West coast Scots (Glasgow) are different to eastern ones (Edinburgh) and those in the highlands are different again. So what is British culture?

However, when I think of the worlds most exported cultures, the UK is number 2 (after the Americans). Outside of Europe (which I admit, I haven't travelled extensively) they tend to go mad for British things, union flags, English pubs, Minis, Minis with union flags on the roof. Admittedly this ends up being quite stereotypical (I.E. Beefeaters) but sometimes I think Americans have more interest in the British royals than the Brits do.

As for culture surviving... Well any culture that cant survive on it's own merits deserves to die. This means that a culture must accept change. I think that British culture is thriving where many European ones are declining because the British are adaptable where as others are refusing to let go of outdated ideas.

The Carribeans who were invited over after world war II had a very British culture, and were probably closer to England in terms of culture and language back then than they are now. Look how they were welcomed back then.

[rodericb]

captain_cynic said:

anonymous said:

[redacted]

But what is British culture?

Beyond the queuing and saying hello to people in the street (this one is pretty common the world over), what is quintessentially British? I think that one is hard to answer because Britain is made up of several distinct cultures, Scottish, Welsh, Irish and English, we can subdivide them again, Newcastle is different to Devon which is different to Essex. West coast Scots (Glasgow) are different to eastern ones (Edinburgh) and those in the highlands are different again. So what is British culture?

However, when I think of the worlds most exported cultures, the UK is number 2 (after the Americans). Outside of Europe (which I admit, I haven't travelled extensively) they tend to go mad for British things, union flags, English pubs, Minis, Minis with union flags on the roof. Admittedly this ends up being quite stereotypical (I.E. Beefeaters) but sometimes I think Americans have more interest in the British royals than the Brits do.

As for culture surviving... Well any culture that cant survive on it's own merits deserves to die. This means that a culture must accept change. I think that British culture is thriving where many European ones are declining because the British are adaptable where as others are refusing to let go of outdated ideas.

It's hard to describe your own culture and it's often a romanticised version if you are able to describe it. It's easier to take a stab at describing other countries/races/religions culture and our own knowledge, emotions, locus of control and other factors will impact how we describe it.

Ask someone from Japan what think British culture is and it'll be pomp and ceremony, standing in queues drinking cups of tea and the usual stereotypes which you know don't really happen for the vast majority of the time. Ask them what French culture is and you'll get another bunch of stereotypes. The funny thing about the Japanese collective thought about French culture is that it sometimes comes crashing down when they actually visit France and find that it's not much like what they thought it would be. It's called Paris Shock and the Japanese consulate in Paris has a 24-hour helpline to assist tourists who suffer from it!

But anyway, not being able to identify your culture is just something which people 'suffer' from. Or it may morph into culture cringe and self loathing, fed further by others appropriation of cultural identifiers and objects in a negative context. In my view cultures should be protected, but there are some parts of cultures which are less than savoury (see item 9 here: https://listverse.com/2014/10/17/10-fascinating-cu...

[TTwiggy]

grumbledoak said:

TTwiggy said:

I can't help thinking that you're confusing multiculturalism with 'ghettoisation'.

That is exactly what multiculturalism is - immigrant groups living separate lives, keeping all aspects of their prior lives unchanged. You are, seemingly without irony, attempting to redefine the spin word for ghettos.

No. What's happening here is that you, and others, either don't understand what a multiculture is, or because you equate it with 'leftyism' you simply dismiss it.

Cultures 'keeping to themselves' in ghettos is mono-culture. When they export facets of their culture to the wider population you get a multiculture.

[bitchstewie]

grumbledoak said:

That is exactly what multiculturalism is - immigrant groups living separate lives, keeping all aspects of their prior lives unchanged. You are, seemingly without irony, attempting to redefine the spin word for ghettos.

I think if you go and ask 10 random people if that's "multiculturalism" the majority would disagree.

What you've just described isn't multiculturalism.

[del mar]

Alpinestars said:

Wow. Sounds like segregation to me. But didn't do you any harm. You've out to be a very balanced chap.

Self Preservation ..

[Alpinestars]

del mar said:

Alpinestars said:

Wow. Sounds like segregation to me. But didn't do you any harm. You've out to be a very balanced chap.

Self Preservation ..

For the women ...

[del mar]

Alpinestars said:

For the women ...

have you had night out in Newcastle ?

[grumbledoak]

bhstewie said:

What you've just described isn't multiculturalism.

One country, multiple cultures. It is the spin word for our failed immigration policies and the ghettos that inevitably formed. Now itself being spun as if it was a good thing and we meant to do it all along.

[s1962a]

grumbledoak said:

bhstewie said:

What you've just described isn't multiculturalism.

One country, multiple cultures. It is the spin word for our failed immigration policies and the ghettos that inevitably formed. Now itself being spun as if it was a good thing and we meant to do it all along.

Maybe you'll be more forthcoming than mufti del mar is on these matters. Do you see these failed ghettos and the people within them as a British problem, or do you still consider the British born people causing these problems as foreign?

[KrissKross]

_dobbo_ said:

KrissKross said:

Turbotbloke said:

No, the threshold is an income equivalent to £36,000 pa over the course of a lifetime.

Its an annual salary requirement.

That's what the "pa" in £36,000 pa means.

You have to earn that your entire working life, once your salary is averaged out.

Oops, I need to spend more time on here actually reading stuff

[TTwiggy]

grumbledoak said:

One country, multiple cultures. It is the spin word for our failed immigration policies and the ghettos that inevitably formed. Now itself being spun as if it was a good thing and we meant to do it all along.

The word was first coined in the 1960s.

[del mar]

ape x said:

The problem is, to me at least, that some people expect that for 'immigrants' or Black people or Pakistani Muslims to have 100% perfect people within it.
As soon as say 3% are into being a bit dodgy, or stealing or grooming girls from care homes in the kebab shops etc it's thrown back in faces of the rest...

Now in the UK many have their opinions on the dodgy white English or the white underclass, but we don't say that is all white English because we accept not all of us will fit into what we call a morally and civilized notion...

So for starters accepting like any group of people so will be Doctors, teachers, poets, Artists...and bunch will be dodgy and not very pleasant people...

Expecting 100% of any non white or immigrant group to be perfect is impossible because our home grown lot are not all 100% perfect...

Having some bad experiences with say a Pakistani Muslim can't mean you have an inherent mistrust of the rest you meet?

Your logic makes sense, even I wouldn't blame an entire group of people because one had cut me up on the way to work.

However it is not 3%, take our favourite group of people, they make up about 4% of the population but account for 14% of the prison population, that is significant.

If this was offset by huge benefits elsewhere, a huge fiscal benefit to the UK then we can take a view on the less savoury types, but on the whole they don't, they are a Net drain on finances.

The system / process / idea has not worked.

[TTwiggy]

del mar said:

take our favourite group of people, they make up about 4% of the population but account for 14% of the prison population, that is significant.

Are they the only group to be over-represented in the prison population?

[del mar]

TTwiggy said:

del mar said:

take our favourite group of people, they make up about 4% of the population but account for 14% of the prison population, that is significant.

Are they the only group to be over-represented in the prison population?

No most migrant groups are, it is only white people who are under represented.