Fining hospitals

[DurianIceCream]

Rovinghawk said:

I'm freelance & get very well paid. With the pay comes the responsibility.

Big boy games, big boy rules. Try it sometime.

So you are a contractor, not an employee. Presumably you also have your own public liability and professional indemnity insurance. Why would you think that what is applicable to an independent contractor is also applicable to an employee? Why should you have the responsibility to ensure something works properly - from your post it sounds like you are a one-man-band. If that is the case, you would be excluded from tendering for most contracts due to the size of your company. You lack the resources to ensure that there are procedures for work to be carried out properly and with adequate QA.

This is a separate point to the fact that independent contractors, like everybody else, make mistakes, still get paid and aren't 'punished' as you seem to think people should be when they make a mistake.

[Rovinghawk]

DurianIceCream said:

Why would you think that what is applicable to an independent contractor is also applicable to an employee?

Do you not think that people should ALL be accountable for their actions? Or do you feel that even though the hospital management obviously haven't done their jobs properly they should carry on as if nothing had happened?

[pavarotti1980]

Rovinghawk said:

Do you not think that people should ALL be accountable for their actions? Or do you feel that even though the hospital management obviously haven't done their jobs properly they should carry on as if nothing had happened?

Is dismissal the only recourse for any individual mistake?

[Rovinghawk]

pavarotti1980 said:

Is dismissal the only recourse for any individual mistake?

No. There are many options, from a quiet word to major bkings to being given all the crappy jobs to forfeit of any bonuses and many other options such as prosecution.

Is there any recourse within this hospital or the rest of the public sector for any individual mistake? It would appear that there isn't.

[DurianIceCream]

Rovinghawk said:

Do you not think that people should ALL be accountable for their actions? Or do you feel that even though the hospital management obviously haven't done their jobs properly they should carry on as if nothing had happened?

Punishing individuals for corporate failings just leads to witch hunts, risk adversion, paralysis and less safety. If in a large organisation, a mistake by an individual can lead to serious consequences, then the organisational procedures are lacking. The problem is fixed by improving procedures, not by punishing individuals.

That you cannot tender for substantial contracts as a small or one person company should tell you the importance of procedures and systems of operation over individual ability.

I've seen plenty of individual contractors make mistakes. I've made mistakes. You will have made mistakes, however good you think you are. The mistakes are picked up by a QA system or other formal procedure, before they become serious. The individual contractors always still get paid their day rate.

[pavarotti1980]

Rovinghawk said:

No. There are many options, from a quiet word to major bkings to being given all the crappy jobs to forfeit of any bonuses and many other options such as prosecution.

Is there any recourse within this hospital or the rest of the public sector for any individual mistake? It would appear that there isn't.

Yes exactly as you stated above obviously with the exception of bonuses. Not something available in the public sector.
It's almost as you think there is no disciplinary procedures present in public sector organisations

Edited by pavarotti1980 on Tuesday 24th April 19:41

[Pesty]

spaximus said:

Too

So many tales like this, NHS used to be able to reclaim VAT, cannot now apparently, so money handed to the NHS is effectively down by 20% in some areas, makes no sense

Yes the NHS pays VAT crazy isn’t but not for everything just most things.

Now guess what if all the services they use are outsourced as in managed service for like estates and engineering etc then they claim vat back.

I think Even if the outsourced company is owned by the NHS Hence this is happening in trusts all over.

http://www.boltonft.nhs.uk/about-us/trust-profile/...

[Dixy]

DurianIceCream said:

Exactly this. It is almost never the fault of a single person when things go wrong. If an individual person can make a mistake and things go seriously wrong, then the fault does not lie with the person making the mistake, for all people make mistakes. The fault lies in the organisational procedure whereby a mistake can have serious consequences.

If people want to start punishing employees for making mistakes then this will happen:
- you will make a mistake yourself, so you will be punished
- nobody will do anything because it would create extreme risk adversion
- mistakes will be hidden because of fear of punishment instead of brought out in the open for the benefit of everyone, to make improvement without assigning blame

You do realise this is the NHS we are talking about, this is what happens to clinicians on a regular basis. Funny how it does not seem to happen to the managers.

[pavarotti1980]

Dixy said:

You do realise this is the NHS we are talking about, this is what happens to clinicians on a regular basis. Funny how it does not seem to happen to the managers.

More likely with clinicians due to GMC registration.

It happens with all staff grades/ptofesions with regularity too

[pavarotti1980]

Pesty said:

Yes the NHS pays VAT crazy isn’t but not for everything just most things.

Now guess what if all the services they use are outsourced as in managed service for like estates and engineering etc then they claim vat back.

I think Even if the outsourced company is owned by the NHS Hence this is happening in trusts all over.

http://www.boltonft.nhs.uk/about-us/trust-profile/...

Wholly owned subsidiaries will disappear in the future but third party suppliers will continue

[Rovinghawk]

pavarotti1980 said:

It's almost as you think there is no disciplinary procedures present in public sector organisations

Using this case as an example, that would appear to be the situation. Was anyone held accountable for Grenfell or was it a case of "systemic errors", "procedural deficiencies", "organisational problems", learning opportunities"? Who gave the order to kill de Menezes, as nobody seemed to have done so? et bloody cetera.

The buck doesn't appear to actually stop anywhere.

[pavarotti1980]

Rovinghawk said:

Using this case as an example, that would appear to be the situation. Was anyone held accountable for Grenfell or was it a case of "systemic errors", "procedural deficiencies", "organisational problems", learning opportunities"? Who gave the order to kill de Menezes, as nobody seemed to have done so? et bloody cetera.

The buck doesn't appear to actually stop anywhere.

Grenfell has a public inquiry so hest wait for those results.

Why not remove yourself from society since you told public sector in such low regard with erratic comparisons

[DurianIceCream]

^ Who should the buck stop with on Grenfell?

The police cannot be ordered to kill someone. The decision to fire a weapon is the decision of the police officer alone, at that place and at that time. So should the officer who shot de Menezez have been punished?

Edited by DurianIceCream on Tuesday 24th April 21:06

[DurianIceCream]

pavarotti1980 said:

Dixy said:

You do realise this is the NHS we are talking about, this is what happens to clinicians on a regular basis. Funny how it does not seem to happen to the managers.

More likely with clinicians due to GMC registration.

It happens with all staff grades/ptofesions with regularity too

Clinicians the world over attract litigation.

[pavarotti1980]

DurianIceCream said:

Clinicians the world over attract litigation.

It's certainly not just unique to the NHS. Just look at the fitness to practice hearings at GMC, HCPC, GPhC and you soon realise very little gets brushed under the carpet

[Rovinghawk]

DurianIceCream said:

^ Who should the buck stop with on Grenfell?

Nobody, apparently- it was a 'systemic/procedural/organisational error' unattributable to anyone specific. Care to bet that's what any enquiry finds?

DurianIceCream said:

So should the officer who shot de Menezez have been punished?

It has been established that nobody did anything wrong and the dead body was simply a learning opportunity. The nearest comparison is the young child with the damaged item- "I didn't touch it, Daddy- it just broke". That buck just keeps passing by.

[DurianIceCream]

Rovinghawk said:

DurianIceCream said:

^ Who should the buck stop with on Grenfell?

Nobody, apparently- it was a 'systemic/procedural/organisational error' unattributable to anyone specific. Care to bet that's what any enquiry finds?

I didn't ask that, I asked who do you think is responsible? And since you think people in positions of responsibility should be punished if it goes wrong, how should they be punished?

[pavarotti1980]

Rovinghawk said:

Nobody, apparently- it was a 'systemic/procedural/organisational error' unattributable to anyone specific. Care to bet that's what any enquiry finds?

Apparently you already know the reasons for the fire. Maybe give the inquiry judge a ring. Might save them some money if you can tell them what caused it.

If you go on about individuals carrying the can for mistakes what are your thoughts on this one then?

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/health/hadiza-b...