Thwaites Brewery trashed by travellers
Discussion
La Liga said:
ravellers who trespass are not merely trespassing, churning up a cricket pitch, and for someone reason doing a dump on the stumps, they're setting up an unauthorised encampment.
That nearly always requires the Local Authority to go through specific procedures to evict them. If other people from other communities did the same, it'd have to be the same response.
Well let’s go with a really precise example. We get the travelling folk invading our village green on a regular basis, and the village green is opposite the pub, so we get lots of time to observe them. The police also come to observe them, probably because of the proximity of the pub and the potential for conflict after the villagers have had a few,That nearly always requires the Local Authority to go through specific procedures to evict them. If other people from other communities did the same, it'd have to be the same response.
As a fairly upstanding member of society, I try not to attract the attention of the police, but if I do, I expect them to search around the immediate problem. For example, if they catch me speeding, I expect them to check the insurance and MOT status of the car, and whether I’d been drinking. I might expect the to check in the boot for dead bodies, that’s fine.
So if I drove onto the village green and did a few donuts in a 911, I would expect to get asked some questions. Nothing to do with an encampment (that was at the other end of the green) but doing donuts in an untaxed vehicle on a village green. We know it was untaxed because we looked it up.
Yet the police stand there and watch. This isn’t a horde of 100 hard men, it’s two teenagers in a (probably) stolen, but definitely untaxed car.
So don’t be overly surprised that a load of middle class upstanding members of society have utterly lost confidence in the police’s ability to do, well, anything much. That’s a slippery slope that leads to budgets being cut further (why should we even spend this much, they do nothing), and ultimately people videoing the police being beaten up rather than helping.
rxe said:
Well let’s go with a really precise example. We get the travelling folk invading our village green on a regular basis, and the village green is opposite the pub, so we get lots of time to observe them. The police also come to observe them, probably because of the proximity of the pub and the potential for conflict after the villagers have had a few,
As a fairly upstanding member of society, I try not to attract the attention of the police, but if I do, I expect them to search around the immediate problem. For example, if they catch me speeding, I expect them to check the insurance and MOT status of the car, and whether I’d been drinking. I might expect the to check in the boot for dead bodies, that’s fine.
So if I drove onto the village green and did a few donuts in a 911, I would expect to get asked some questions. Nothing to do with an encampment (that was at the other end of the green) but doing donuts in an untaxed vehicle on a village green. We know it was untaxed because we looked it up.
Yet the police stand there and watch. This isn’t a horde of 100 hard men, it’s two teenagers in a (probably) stolen, but definitely untaxed car.
So don’t be overly surprised that a load of middle class upstanding members of society have utterly lost confidence in the police’s ability to do, well, anything much. That’s a slippery slope that leads to budgets being cut further (why should we even spend this much, they do nothing), and ultimately people videoing the police being beaten up rather than helping.
Exactly this. It’s obvious that the resources aren’t there but the general apathy when faced with travellers is reported by many members of the public. Unfortunately this will be shouted down, despite it being factual. As a fairly upstanding member of society, I try not to attract the attention of the police, but if I do, I expect them to search around the immediate problem. For example, if they catch me speeding, I expect them to check the insurance and MOT status of the car, and whether I’d been drinking. I might expect the to check in the boot for dead bodies, that’s fine.
So if I drove onto the village green and did a few donuts in a 911, I would expect to get asked some questions. Nothing to do with an encampment (that was at the other end of the green) but doing donuts in an untaxed vehicle on a village green. We know it was untaxed because we looked it up.
Yet the police stand there and watch. This isn’t a horde of 100 hard men, it’s two teenagers in a (probably) stolen, but definitely untaxed car.
So don’t be overly surprised that a load of middle class upstanding members of society have utterly lost confidence in the police’s ability to do, well, anything much. That’s a slippery slope that leads to budgets being cut further (why should we even spend this much, they do nothing), and ultimately people videoing the police being beaten up rather than helping.
Red 4 said:
Odd reply - like I said, some strange ones on this forum !
You and Rovingtroll should start your own sub-forum for those who live in an alternate reality.
You made a point about ‘winning the internet’, are you not guilty yourself? Whilst I have every sympathy for your position do you think that this is helping? You and Rovingtroll should start your own sub-forum for those who live in an alternate reality.
rxe said:
Well let’s go with a really precise example. We get the travelling folk invading our village green on a regular basis, and the village green is opposite the pub, so we get lots of time to observe them. The police also come to observe them, probably because of the proximity of the pub and the potential for conflict after the villagers have had a few,
As a fairly upstanding member of society, I try not to attract the attention of the police, but if I do, I expect them to search around the immediate problem. For example, if they catch me speeding, I expect them to check the insurance and MOT status of the car, and whether I’d been drinking. I might expect the to check in the boot for dead bodies, that’s fine.
So if I drove onto the village green and did a few donuts in a 911, I would expect to get asked some questions. Nothing to do with an encampment (that was at the other end of the green) but doing donuts in an untaxed vehicle on a village green. We know it was untaxed because we looked it up.
Yet the police stand there and watch. This isn’t a horde of 100 hard men, it’s two teenagers in a (probably) stolen, but definitely untaxed car.
I can't speak for every anecdotal example. Perhaps the police in those circumstance could and should do more, perhaps not. As a fairly upstanding member of society, I try not to attract the attention of the police, but if I do, I expect them to search around the immediate problem. For example, if they catch me speeding, I expect them to check the insurance and MOT status of the car, and whether I’d been drinking. I might expect the to check in the boot for dead bodies, that’s fine.
So if I drove onto the village green and did a few donuts in a 911, I would expect to get asked some questions. Nothing to do with an encampment (that was at the other end of the green) but doing donuts in an untaxed vehicle on a village green. We know it was untaxed because we looked it up.
Yet the police stand there and watch. This isn’t a horde of 100 hard men, it’s two teenagers in a (probably) stolen, but definitely untaxed car.
What seems to rather effectively undermine the 'double standards' argument is how many go through the criminal justice system relative to their population. If they're let off with so much / ignored so much, how come that's the case?
On a side note, it's a common misconception that travellers are untaxed / have no insurance etc. The bad ones aren't going to get caught out that easily.
rxe said:
So don’t be overly surprised that a load of middle class upstanding members of society have utterly lost confidence in the police’s ability to do, well, anything much. That’s a slippery slope that leads to budgets being cut further (why should we even spend this much, they do nothing), and ultimately people videoing the police being beaten up rather than helping.
I would be surprised given there's no evidence that trust and confidence has diminished in the police over the years. Trust has pretty remained the same since the 1980s, so I'd be cautious about believing there's some sort of decay / slope (common fallacies). yonex said:
Red 4 said:
Odd reply - like I said, some strange ones on this forum !
You and Rovingtroll should start your own sub-forum for those who live in an alternate reality.
You made a point about ‘winning the internet’, are you not guilty yourself? Whilst I have every sympathy for your position do you think that this is helping? You and Rovingtroll should start your own sub-forum for those who live in an alternate reality.
On the subject of Rovingtroll though ... Well, that's a different matter altogether.
His trolling is legendary and he deserves to be called out on his lies.
rxe said:
So don’t be overly surprised that a load of middle class upstanding members of society have utterly lost confidence in the police’s ability to do, well, anything much. That’s a slippery slope that leads to budgets being cut further (why should we even spend this much, they do nothing), and ultimately people videoing the police being beaten up rather than helping.
The former Chief Constable of Lancashire Police would probably agree with you - not about further cuts but about the impact of funding reductions and the level of service the police are able to provide.This was in 2015…https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lancashire-34503004
"Lancashire Police will not be viable as a Police Service by 2020".
It seems he had a point.
La Liga said:
would be surprised given there's no evidence that trust and confidence has diminished in the police over the years. Trust has pretty remained the same since the 1980s, so I'd be cautious about believing there's some sort of decay / slope (common fallacies).
Yes, it was one example, but I have many more. I see a pattern, lots of other people see a pattern. They may be over represented in the prison system, but when you have a large group of people with no visible (legal) means of support, one would have to assume that the level of criminality in that community is higher than the general population. As to trust in the police, I’ve just had a glance at TVPs Police and Crime plan for 2018. They proudly say that 56% of people trust the police, and 46% of people trust the police to keep them safe. Wow. That suggests that in a prosperous SE England area, 44% of people can’t bring themselves to say that they trust the police, and the majority do not believe that the police will keep them safe.
When I see a half billion pound organisation unable to stop a couple of kids driving over the village green, I’m certainly with the doubters about the ability of the police to keep me safe.
I've got not doubt they commit proportionally more crime than other groups. That's why proportionally more are in prison.
My suggestion was it's an indication there isn't some wide-ranging, embedded double standards where they 'get away with things'.
The fact so many go through the CJS suggests the opposite.
I'm not sure I'd add too much weight to the judgement of an 11 year old or rebellious teenagers.
The adult survey concluded 87% of adults we satisfied with the police in their area. So if you're happy to take the opposite side of the coin with the trust measurement, I assume you're happy to do it with the satisfaction one i.e. you're in a 13% minority (presumably) who aren't satisfied. Perhaps you need to reflect on your own expectations and judgements.
Trust for adults in the longer-term, national picture, averages the mid-60s and if weighted more recently, the high 60s, if you're interested.
I'd also suggest they haven't proudly presented the youth data:
My suggestion was it's an indication there isn't some wide-ranging, embedded double standards where they 'get away with things'.
The fact so many go through the CJS suggests the opposite.
rxe said:
They proudly say that 56% of people trust the police, and 46% of people trust the police to keep them safe. Wow. That suggests that in a prosperous SE England area, 44% of people can’t bring themselves to say that they trust the police, and the majority do not believe that the police will keep them safe.
It suggests 44% of youths can't bring themselves to say they trust the police, since that's the youth survey (11-17 year olds). I'm not sure I'd add too much weight to the judgement of an 11 year old or rebellious teenagers.
The adult survey concluded 87% of adults we satisfied with the police in their area. So if you're happy to take the opposite side of the coin with the trust measurement, I assume you're happy to do it with the satisfaction one i.e. you're in a 13% minority (presumably) who aren't satisfied. Perhaps you need to reflect on your own expectations and judgements.
Trust for adults in the longer-term, national picture, averages the mid-60s and if weighted more recently, the high 60s, if you're interested.
I'd also suggest they haven't proudly presented the youth data:
TVP plan said:
Perceptions of the police among residents of Thames Valley were explored in the 2016 surveys conducted by my office. Findings suggest most adults are highly satisfied with the service provided by the police and think that they do a good job. However, some young people surveyed displayed less favourable perceptions. Only just over half of the young respondents stated they trusted the police and less than 50% said the police made them feel safe. Furthermore, 14% of young respondents felt intimidated by police and one in ten lacked trust in the police at all.
La Liga said:
would be surprised given there's no evidence that trust and confidence has diminished in the police over the years. Trust has pretty remained the same since the 1980s, so I'd be cautious about believing there's some sort of decay / slope (common fallacies).
I have to say, I thoroughly enjoy your posts - the calm, measured way in which you deliver them. It provides a lot of mirth here. Thank you. If there’s no double standards when it comes to policing, are you suggesting that if I got an untaxed car and did donuts on the village green until the police showed up, they would simply watch me until I got bored and parked up? Would you stop an individual doing this? I suspect I’d get in quite a bit of trouble.
You’re right, those figures are the youth survey, I hadn’t spotted that. It’s interesting that they haven’t asked the adults the same question, and it’s also alarming that tomorrow’s adults have such poor trust - remember this is not some deprived inner city area. If you asked us in the pub about confidence in the Police’s ability to enforce the law, I suspect you’d get a big fat zero.
You’re right, those figures are the youth survey, I hadn’t spotted that. It’s interesting that they haven’t asked the adults the same question, and it’s also alarming that tomorrow’s adults have such poor trust - remember this is not some deprived inner city area. If you asked us in the pub about confidence in the Police’s ability to enforce the law, I suspect you’d get a big fat zero.
rxe said:
If there’s no double standards when it comes to policing, are you suggesting that if I got an untaxed car and did donuts on the village green until the police showed up, they would simply watch me until I got bored and parked up? Would you stop an individual doing this? I suspect I’d get in quite a bit of trouble.
You’re right, those figures are the youth survey, I hadn’t spotted that. It’s interesting that they haven’t asked the adults the same question, and it’s also alarming that tomorrow’s adults have such poor trust - remember this is not some deprived inner city area. If you asked us in the pub about confidence in the Police’s ability to enforce the law, I suspect you’d get a big fat zero.
I missed it on the info-graphic, too. I didn't spot it until I read the text I quoted. You’re right, those figures are the youth survey, I hadn’t spotted that. It’s interesting that they haven’t asked the adults the same question, and it’s also alarming that tomorrow’s adults have such poor trust - remember this is not some deprived inner city area. If you asked us in the pub about confidence in the Police’s ability to enforce the law, I suspect you’d get a big fat zero.
It's also odd the same questions weren't asked / presented. But then a PCC's office is unlikely to be as good as the ONS when undertaking surveying.
As I say, there's not much I can say on those particular circumstances. I would suggest if you and others feel they aren't dealing with something correctly like that then make a collective complaint.
iSore said:
"there's no evidence that trust and confidence has diminished in the police over the years"
That's just a killer though!
A cross between Gerald Kaufman and Sir Humphrey Appleby.
It depends on what you class as evidence. There's a fair bit of surveying undertaken and subsequent analysis that goes into the subject matter and those are the broad conclusions, that there isn't diminished trust and confidence. That includes additional 'over-sampling' in places like the Met, which helps underpin the conclusions. That's just a killer though!
A cross between Gerald Kaufman and Sir Humphrey Appleby.You're naturally welcome to provide evidence that supports the opposite.
Or just continue to make 'hilarious', 'let me show the forum how witty and cultured I am', references to a fictional character from a satire.
iSore said:
"there's no evidence that trust and confidence has diminished in the police over the years"
That's just a killer though! A cross between Gerald Kaufman and Sir Humphrey Appleby.
If you look at the public satisfaction surveys there is no evidence that this has declined.That's just a killer though!
A cross between Gerald Kaufman and Sir Humphrey Appleby. Lancs, for example, is 77% overall.
However, given that the majority of the public never come into contact with the police you could argue that the surveys are not representative of the service provided/ received.
Having said that I do not believe that Pistonheads is a fair representation of society.
It's also fair to say that Police Officers themselves will tell you the service is in decline (to put it mildly).
So how do you suggest satisfaction in the police is measured ?
La Liga said:
t depends on what you class as evidence. There's a fair bit of surveying undertaken and subsequent analysis that goes into the subject matter and those are the broad conclusions, that there isn't diminished trust and confidence. That includes additional 'over-sampling' in places like the Met, which helps underpin the conclusions.
You're naturally welcome to provide evidence that supports the opposite.
Or just continue to make 'hilarious', 'let me show the forum how witty and cultured I am', references to a fictional character from a satire.
Brilliant! You're naturally welcome to provide evidence that supports the opposite.
Or just continue to make 'hilarious', 'let me show the forum how witty and cultured I am', references to a fictional character from a satire.
Keep 'em coming please!
Red 4 said:
iSore said:
"there's no evidence that trust and confidence has diminished in the police over the years"
That's just a killer though! A cross between Gerald Kaufman and Sir Humphrey Appleby.
If you look at the public satisfaction surveys there is no evidence that this has declined.That's just a killer though!
A cross between Gerald Kaufman and Sir Humphrey Appleby. Lancs, for example, is 77% overall.
However, given that the majority of the public never come into contact with the police you could argue that the surveys are not representative of the service provided/ received.
Having said that I do not believe that Pistonheads is a fair representation of society.
It's also fair to say that Police Officers themselves will tell you the service is in decline (to put it mildly).
So how do you suggest satisfaction in the police is measured ?
With the exception of the clergy, few professions have have gained / lost much trust over the years, according to one measurement.
La Liga said:
he old 'have a bad experience tell 10x as many people' applies to those willing to come forward with general negativity.
With the exception of the clergy, few professions have have gained / lost much trust over the years, according to one measurement.
With the exception of the clergy, few professions have have gained / lost much trust over the years, according to one measurement.
Re; your first point - yes, more than likely.
Re; your second point - I'll take your word for it.
My point was that Chief Officers are telling the public that the police will be/ are unable to deliver some services they have historically provided.
That should reduce the public's confidence in the police. If the public listen of course.
The reality, IMO, is that a large proportion of the public don't really care about the police.
Until they need them, obviously.
Edited by Red 4 on Friday 23 November 16:22
markcoznottz said:
Trial date was supposed to be January 11th. Anybody in the legal profession got any info re this? Or if it's been delayed?
They were tried in November and up for sentence this month.No further arrests to date
https://www.lancashire.police.uk/news/2018/novembe...
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