Thwaites Brewery trashed by travellers
Discussion
Rovinghawk said:
Dibble said:
targeting speeders ........ you look at a vehicle, form an opinion it’s speeding and ping it with the laser.
So they never zap everything first & form opinions later? Right.Dibble said:
It’s nothing to do with officers being lazy or scared, it’s nothing to do with travellers being immune and it’s nothing to do with it being “too hard”.
It's not the police's fault. Blame cuts, blame politicians, blame lawyers, blame the White Fish Authority...............................It matters not who the 100 people are. That many people are very unlikely to get arrested as a result of a spontaneous incident, for the reasons I’ve outlined above. To paraphrase, I can explain it to you, but I can’t make you understand it.
Dibble said:
Not when I’ve done it, no. It’s all video recorded, so any camera operator doing that wouldn’t last very long. I’m sure it happens on occasion, but not routinely, as you seem to infer.
You're inferring it, I might or might not have been implying it. Like you, I'm sure it happens on occasion, undermining your statement about forming opinion first.Dibble said:
It matters not who the 100 people are.
Funny how the people always seem to be from the same demographic, isn't it?Dibble said:
To paraphrase, I can explain it to you, but I can’t make you understand it.
Your problem (you the group, not the individual) is that too many people understand it all too well & don't accept the explanation. See other posters on this thread for examples.Ireland developed the will to deal with it & their problem pretty much vanished. We seem to have acquired it.
Plenty of large groups of people are dealt with as reactive investigations - public disorder, football hooligans, organised crime groups dealing drugs... so no, it’s not always the same demographic.
As for the rest of your post, I’ve explained why it hasn’t or wouldn’t happen. Infer/imply, tomayto/tomahto.
I really don’t understand why you seem to have such difficulty understand why ANY large group of people aren’t routinely rounded up and taken into custody, for the numerous reasons I’ve repeatedly outlined.
As for the rest of your post, I’ve explained why it hasn’t or wouldn’t happen. Infer/imply, tomayto/tomahto.
I really don’t understand why you seem to have such difficulty understand why ANY large group of people aren’t routinely rounded up and taken into custody, for the numerous reasons I’ve repeatedly outlined.
People should ignore the troll.
I really get the pleadings over resources and the effects of years of budget cuts. However, I suspect the Great British Public, all those who dutifully pay Income Tax, VAT, NI, Council Tax, VED, carry insurance, use the correct shade of diesel are getting a bit weary.It's nothing to do with the cuts.
Forces of that size have never had the resources / infrastructure to arrest and process 100 people during a spontaneous incident.
bet you won't get an answer to that.Apart from all the answers he/she did get?
Bet you wish you'd read a bit further before posting, would have saved you having to edit
It's called enforcing the law, regardless of the circumstances.
This will earn the force respect from public and criminals alike.It is when it would prevent several forces from practically functioning.
The police are required to be able to provide a responsive function, not have most of its responsive function spending all their time in a queue for custody whilst emergencies stack-up unattended...
The record numbers in prison would probably disagree with you.
Ironically, the reason things have changed since the 1980s was the risk to the law-abiding being falsely arrest / kept in cells. On a mining related note, see Orgreave as a prime example.
55palfers said:
La Liga said:
Had there been a fair bit of notice 100 travellers were coming to cause damage to a location then suitable plans could also be made and contingencies put in place.
With my tongue firmly in my cheek, are you saying the Police need written notice of skulduggery to enable them to act now?I really get the pleadings over resources and the effects of years of budget cuts. However, I suspect the Great British Public, all those who dutifully pay Income Tax, VAT, NI, Council Tax, VED, carry insurance, use the correct shade of diesel are getting a bit weary.
Forces of that size have never had the resources / infrastructure to arrest and process 100 people during a spontaneous incident.
Greendubber said:
RichB said:
55palfers said:
Police managed to arrest 130 (probably mainly law abiding) cyclists - how was that managed?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-190231...
There just no will to deal with the problem.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-190231...
There just no will to deal with the problem.
bet you won't get an answer to that.Bet you wish you'd read a bit further before posting, would have saved you having to edit
skyrover said:
La Liga said:
ou're not playing devil's advocate, you suggested a force with fewer than 3000 regular officers (with its relative infrastructure) arrest and process 100 people on a bank holiday weekend.
It's a ridiculous suggestion as I am sure you know.
It's not ridiculous at all...It's a ridiculous suggestion as I am sure you know.
It's called enforcing the law, regardless of the circumstances.
This will earn the force respect from public and criminals alike.
The police are required to be able to provide a responsive function, not have most of its responsive function spending all their time in a queue for custody whilst emergencies stack-up unattended...
RichB said:
Not really, I don't give a toss what others think. 
Too old and jaundiced... We all know the 
s are above the law so the police can't be bothered to arrest them. Waste of police time... The public are sick of them and I'm sure the police are sick of them but nothing will change.
Except all the thousands who were arrested and are in prison. Too old and jaundiced... We all know the s are above the law so the police can't be bothered to arrest them. Waste of police time... The public are sick of them and I'm sure the police are sick of them but nothing will change. powerstroke said:
La Liga said:
Things have changed slightly since the 1980s...
Yes law only applies to the law abiding now Ironically, the reason things have changed since the 1980s was the risk to the law-abiding being falsely arrest / kept in cells. On a mining related note, see Orgreave as a prime example.
Any s reading this must be laughing their bks off. We have active serving members of the police force openly admitting that they cannot deal with their lawlessness and no suggestions of how that is likely to change.
How about upon the first sign of incursion diverting a scamera van to record plates in and out whilst waiting an hour or so for the video surveillance to arrive. Then when they are moved on, follow them with video surveillance so that ID of those responsible for the illegal incursions is available. That would not take take 200 officers and will provide some valuable assistance when the scum inevitably fly tip, litter, drive vehicles dangerously on public land, st in a hedge, act threatening to locals, turn to site with my farm machinery etc.
All it requires is a little bit of prioritisation of a few resources when the public notify plod of an infestation, and enough commitment to follow through. If it means that these parasites are given a message of zero tolerance, then that is great and maybe they will feck off to some other land - like they did when the Irish showed their teeth and the bds came to soft touch England in force, all year round.
s reading this must be laughing their bks off. We have active serving members of the police force openly admitting that they cannot deal with their lawlessness and no suggestions of how that is likely to change.How about upon the first sign of incursion diverting a scamera van to record plates in and out whilst waiting an hour or so for the video surveillance to arrive. Then when they are moved on, follow them with video surveillance so that ID of those responsible for the illegal incursions is available. That would not take take 200 officers and will provide some valuable assistance when the scum inevitably fly tip, litter, drive vehicles dangerously on public land, s
t in a hedge, act threatening to locals, turn to site with my farm machinery etc.All it requires is a little bit of prioritisation of a few resources when the public notify plod of an infestation, and enough commitment to follow through. If it means that these parasites are given a message of zero tolerance, then that is great and maybe they will feck off to some other land - like they did when the Irish showed their teeth and the b
ds came to soft touch England in force, all year round.SeeFive said:
How about upon the first sign of incursion diverting a scamera van to record plates in and out whilst waiting an hour or so for the video surveillance to arrive. Then when they are moved on, follow them with video surveillance so that ID of those responsible for the illegal incursions is available. That would not take take 200 officers and will provide some valuable assistance when the scum inevitably fly tip, litter, drive vehicles dangerously on public land, st in a hedge, act threatening to locals, turn to site with my farm machinery etc.
All it requires is a little bit of prioritisation of a few resources when the public notify plod of an infestation, and enough commitment to follow through. If it means that these parasites are given a message of zero tolerance, then that is great and maybe they will feck off to some other land - like they did when the Irish showed their teeth and the bds came to soft touch England in force, all year round.
Yes, all your make-it-up-as-you-go-along, level 2 diverting, RIPA avoiding, surveillance incoherence requires is a 'little bit of prioritisation'. t in a hedge, act threatening to locals, turn to site with my farm machinery etc.All it requires is a little bit of prioritisation of a few resources when the public notify plod of an infestation, and enough commitment to follow through. If it means that these parasites are given a message of zero tolerance, then that is great and maybe they will feck off to some other land - like they did when the Irish showed their teeth and the b
ds came to soft touch England in force, all year round.Amazing how no one has thought of it before...
Edited by anonymous-user on Wednesday 30th May 22:58
SeeFive - it’s not just travellers, it’s ANY large group of people (see my post a couple above).
With regards to stuff like video surveillance, these need to be authorised in line with RIPA (regulation of investigatory powers Act). It’s no longer just a case of tipping up with a camcorder. That’s not to say a RIPA authority wouldn’t be granted, just that what might seem to a lay person as a solution may not always be quite so straight forward. Stuff being hard shouldn’t be a blocker, but logistically, some things are impossible.
Whether the laws about trespass etc are still “right” and whether the police have the powers you or I may like them to have is a bit of a moot point. The police have to act within the laws as they are, not what we might like them to be.
With regards to stuff like video surveillance, these need to be authorised in line with RIPA (regulation of investigatory powers Act). It’s no longer just a case of tipping up with a camcorder. That’s not to say a RIPA authority wouldn’t be granted, just that what might seem to a lay person as a solution may not always be quite so straight forward. Stuff being hard shouldn’t be a blocker, but logistically, some things are impossible.
Whether the laws about trespass etc are still “right” and whether the police have the powers you or I may like them to have is a bit of a moot point. The police have to act within the laws as they are, not what we might like them to be.
Dibble said:
Plenty of large groups of people are dealt with as reactive investigations - public disorder, football hooligans, organised crime groups dealing drugs... so no, it’s not always the same demographic.
As for the rest of your post, I’ve explained why it hasn’t or wouldn’t happen. Infer/imply, tomayto/tomahto.
I really don’t understand why you seem to have such difficulty understand why ANY large group of people aren’t routinely rounded up and taken into custody, for the numerous reasons I’ve repeatedly outlined.
We seemed ok until they became the police service !! how much longer are the police going to have the consent of the public they are just the provisional wing of BRAKE and the social services oh and if you say something nasty on the internet , helping druggies and condoning drug use ... , house or car broken into feral scum causing trouble go whistle ... As for the rest of your post, I’ve explained why it hasn’t or wouldn’t happen. Infer/imply, tomayto/tomahto.
I really don’t understand why you seem to have such difficulty understand why ANY large group of people aren’t routinely rounded up and taken into custody, for the numerous reasons I’ve repeatedly outlined.
Dibble said:
Rovinghawk said:
Dibble said:
targeting speeders ........ you look at a vehicle, form an opinion it’s speeding and ping it with the laser.
So they never zap everything first & form opinions later? Right.Dibble said:
It’s nothing to do with officers being lazy or scared, it’s nothing to do with travellers being immune and it’s nothing to do with it being “too hard”.
It's not the police's fault. Blame cuts, blame politicians, blame lawyers, blame the White Fish Authority...............................It matters not who the 100 people are. That many people are very unlikely to get arrested as a result of a spontaneous incident, for the reasons I’ve outlined above. To paraphrase, I can explain it to you, but I can’t make you understand it.
Wasting our time with this one.
La Liga said:
es, all your make-it-up-as-you-go-along, level 2 diverting RIPA avoid surveillance incoherence requires is a 'little bit of prioritisation'.
Amazing how no one has thought of it before...
At least someone is taking 30 seconds to punt ideas to be either shot down or implemented. How long is the force dedicating to this issue? Amazing how no one has thought of it before...
Well I am seeing a serious repetitive problem, a lot of victims etc, and with the greatest of respect for plod on the floor, absolutely nothing around a plan to deal with it. Your superiors should be ashamed instead of political whining about funding all the time.
If they can whine about funding then I have the right to whine about prioritisation and a lack of any thought about prevention of these serial offenders being offered to reduce the growing impact they have on our society.
powerstroke said:
We seemed ok until they became the police service !! how much longer are the police going to have the consent of the public they are just the provisional wing of BRAKE and the social services oh and if you say something nasty on the internet , helping druggies and condoning drug use ... , house or car broken into feral scum causing trouble go whistle ...
Trust has been measured in the police since the 1980s. It pretty much remains the same. Same with other measurements and indications. The police aren't the issue in the criminal justice system.
There's no issue filling courts / prisons up - look at Crown Court waiting times.
If the government provided twice as many places the police could easily supply the customers.
La Liga said:
es, your make-it-up-as-you-go-along, level 2 diverting, RIPA avoiding, surveillance incoherence requires is a 'little bit of prioritisation'.
Amazing how no one has thought of it before...
Assuming you, Dibble and Greendubble agree Amazing how no one has thought of it before...
s are a problem what is your suggestion for solving it? Genuine question, why not tell us what your answer is? powerstroke said:
We seemed ok until they became the police service !! how much longer are the police going to have the consent of the public they are just the provisional wing of BRAKE and the social services oh and if you say something nasty on the internet , helping druggies and condoning drug use ... , house or car broken into feral scum causing trouble go whistle ...
Go on, then.Within current legislation and resourcing, how do you deal with it? Explain how many officers are on duty, how many you would need to arrest, transport, house, investigate and interview 100 people from a spontaneous incident on one of the busiest weekends of the year. All while maintaining the other requirements on the police.
Not fantasy, actual facts.
Dibble said:
2BToo - as has already been said, this will be a “reactive” investigation. I’d hope that efforts were made to identify all those present, but of course, it depends at what point the police were made aware. Those responsible for the damage may have already left prior to police knowledge, let alone attendance.
Don’t get me wrong, the damage caused was completely unacceptable. I always find criminal damage a strange one. I just don’t “get” it. Theft or assault, I can sort of understand, but not damage. And this damage seems to have been particularly malicious.
I’d guess there will be a dedicated investigation team set up to look into this. Which of course means, they won’t be doing their day jobs, so everything else gets put on the back burner, meaning the victims of those crimes will have to wait longer for resolution. It’s not like on tv either, it will probably be a DS and maybe, if you’re lucky, half a dozen DCs.
A quick Google shows Lancashire has 2,910 Police officers. As per Greendubber, custody offices are frequently full to capacity, especially over a sunny bank holiday weekend with a pay day thrown in. If it’s the actual bank holiday, staffing is down to minimum operating levels. Of those 2,910, they aren’t all on duty, 24/7. Some will be on leave, some off sick, some away training, some on rest days, some diverted to court. Not all of those on duty will be able to respond and sending officers across the force denudes cover elsewhere. Good luck with getting neighbouring forces to send officers or accommodate detainees over a busy bank holiday weekend. Most forces work a five shift system for response, so 80% of response officers aren’t on duty at once. You might get shift overlap, but that’s 2-3 hours at each end of a shift, possibly.
Bigends (IMHO) isn’t playing “Devil’s Advocate”, he’s just being a weapons grade cock. He knows exactly why 100 people weren’t arrested, but no doubt about n his day he’d have singlehandedly had it sorted out before refs and back to base for tea and medals. What one might refer to as a “Tommy Two sts”, a “Topper” or an “Elevenerifer”. I’m no wet behind the ears probationer, I’ve got almost 22 years in and he’s talking utter bks, as he so frequently does.
Comparing this spontaneous incident to a preplanned incident at a highly resourced, preplanned event at possibly the largest Policing operation this country has ever seen, involving not only the biggest force in the UK but officers on mutual aide from across the country is like comparing apples and things that are the complete opposite of apples.
I’ve no idea how many officers are still on the Madeleine McCann enquiry. I’ve no idea why there is a special operation, somewhere ne, somewhere has made a decision. Most camera vans ar now staffed by police staff rather than police officers, wh9 have a very narrow remit. They can’t be used for other investigative roles. Yes, targeting speeders is easy, in as much that you look at a vehicle, form an opinion it’s speeding and ping it with the laser. There are plenty of more complex offences that are investigated but don’t result in conviction.
Logistically, arresting, transporting, housing and interviewing 100 people at once in response to a spontaneous incident in a force of under 3,000 officers is extremely unlikely to ever happen. You or I may not like it, but that’s the reality. It’s nothing to do with officers being lazy or scared, it’s nothing to do with travellers being immune and it’s nothing to do with it being “too hard”.
Just your opinion Dibble (WTF is a Topper is it some quaint northern insult?) - I know full well why they werent arrested - but you know as well as I do that they should have been Lancs should be straight with the public and cut the bull in their press releases.. Be intereseting to se what the 'dedicated investigation team' going to establish now. Forensics wont be worth a light so i'm not sure what else may is available to give evidence for arrests. This was hardly a spontaneous incident - they were there for three days.Don’t get me wrong, the damage caused was completely unacceptable. I always find criminal damage a strange one. I just don’t “get” it. Theft or assault, I can sort of understand, but not damage. And this damage seems to have been particularly malicious.
I’d guess there will be a dedicated investigation team set up to look into this. Which of course means, they won’t be doing their day jobs, so everything else gets put on the back burner, meaning the victims of those crimes will have to wait longer for resolution. It’s not like on tv either, it will probably be a DS and maybe, if you’re lucky, half a dozen DCs.
A quick Google shows Lancashire has 2,910 Police officers. As per Greendubber, custody offices are frequently full to capacity, especially over a sunny bank holiday weekend with a pay day thrown in. If it’s the actual bank holiday, staffing is down to minimum operating levels. Of those 2,910, they aren’t all on duty, 24/7. Some will be on leave, some off sick, some away training, some on rest days, some diverted to court. Not all of those on duty will be able to respond and sending officers across the force denudes cover elsewhere. Good luck with getting neighbouring forces to send officers or accommodate detainees over a busy bank holiday weekend. Most forces work a five shift system for response, so 80% of response officers aren’t on duty at once. You might get shift overlap, but that’s 2-3 hours at each end of a shift, possibly.
Bigends (IMHO) isn’t playing “Devil’s Advocate”, he’s just being a weapons grade cock. He knows exactly why 100 people weren’t arrested, but no doubt about n his day he’d have singlehandedly had it sorted out before refs and back to base for tea and medals. What one might refer to as a “Tommy Two s
ts”, a “Topper” or an “Elevenerifer”. I’m no wet behind the ears probationer, I’ve got almost 22 years in and he’s talking utter bks, as he so frequently does.Comparing this spontaneous incident to a preplanned incident at a highly resourced, preplanned event at possibly the largest Policing operation this country has ever seen, involving not only the biggest force in the UK but officers on mutual aide from across the country is like comparing apples and things that are the complete opposite of apples.
I’ve no idea how many officers are still on the Madeleine McCann enquiry. I’ve no idea why there is a special operation, somewhere ne, somewhere has made a decision. Most camera vans ar now staffed by police staff rather than police officers, wh9 have a very narrow remit. They can’t be used for other investigative roles. Yes, targeting speeders is easy, in as much that you look at a vehicle, form an opinion it’s speeding and ping it with the laser. There are plenty of more complex offences that are investigated but don’t result in conviction.
Logistically, arresting, transporting, housing and interviewing 100 people at once in response to a spontaneous incident in a force of under 3,000 officers is extremely unlikely to ever happen. You or I may not like it, but that’s the reality. It’s nothing to do with officers being lazy or scared, it’s nothing to do with travellers being immune and it’s nothing to do with it being “too hard”.
Said it before, saying it again. Last time was when travellers here in sleepy Oxfordshire didn't move until notice was served on them, while in the meantime several innocent children got bitten by 'their' dogs, also a adult plus a councillor got bitten who served the notice.
The police were there usual 'forceful' self in these cases of p eye kay eee why is - they 'asked' them kindly to please keep their doggies under control.
No lack of police manpower in this case, but the untouchables get away with it as per usual.
The untouchables moved eventually. To invade someone else's peace over the bank holiday. AGAIN, they have been moved.
Me, you. We'd be looking at our dogs put down and court cases coming up.
Law unto themselves.
End of.
The police were there usual 'forceful' self in these cases of p eye kay eee why is - they 'asked' them kindly to please keep their doggies under control.
No lack of police manpower in this case, but the untouchables get away with it as per usual.
The untouchables moved eventually. To invade someone else's peace over the bank holiday. AGAIN, they have been moved.
Me, you. We'd be looking at our dogs put down and court cases coming up.
Law unto themselves.
End of.
OK so not enough prison cells, so why not at least start confiscating all the vehicles that cannot show proper ownership, insurance, and roadworthiness. Start to disrupt them that way. Better than the current police answer of just whining that there aren't enough resources so they'll just do nothing at all.
RichB said:
La Liga said:
es, your make-it-up-as-you-go-along, level 2 diverting, RIPA avoiding, surveillance incoherence requires is a 'little bit of prioritisation'.
Amazing how no one has thought of it before...
Assuming you, Dibble and Greendubble agree Amazing how no one has thought of it before...
s are a problem what is your suggestion for solving it? Genuine question, why not tell us what your answer is? No one has managed to solve it just yet so I don't imagine we'll be able to.
kev1974 said:
OK so not enough prison cells, so why not at least start confiscating all the vehicles that cannot show proper ownership, insurance, and roadworthiness. Start to disrupt them that way. Better than the current police answer of just whining that there aren't enough resources so they'll just do nothing at all.
It's a misconception that travellers drive without insurance etc. Do you really think they're foolish enough to risk their most important asset?
dandarez said:
Said it before, saying it again. Last time was when travellers here in sleepy Oxfordshire didn't move until notice was served on them, while in the meantime several innocent children got bitten by 'their' dogs, also a adult plus a councillor got bitten who served the notice.
The police were there usual 'forceful' self in these cases of p eye kay eee why is - they 'asked' them kindly to please keep their doggies under control.
No lack of police manpower in this case, but the untouchables get away with it as per usual.
The untouchables moved eventually. To invade someone else's peace over the bank holiday. AGAIN, they have been moved.
Me, you. We'd be looking at our dogs put down and court cases coming up.
Law unto themselves.
End of.
Most dangerous dog crimes don't result in a prosecution, let alone destruction orders. The police were there usual 'forceful' self in these cases of p eye kay eee why is - they 'asked' them kindly to please keep their doggies under control.
No lack of police manpower in this case, but the untouchables get away with it as per usual.
The untouchables moved eventually. To invade someone else's peace over the bank holiday. AGAIN, they have been moved.
Me, you. We'd be looking at our dogs put down and court cases coming up.
Law unto themselves.
End of.
Data available online.
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