Thwaites Brewery trashed by travellers

[Digga]

Unfortunately large parts of society no longer see the police as an emergency service, but rather the first port of call in assisting and arbitrating in the chaos and stupidity of their everyday lives. This is by no means only the stereotypical, sinkhole council estate scum - the sorts who make the lives of other people on the estate a living hell - but it pervades way up into the socio-economic groupings. In fact, with regard to domestic abuse, it's often the gilded, gated communities where it is at its worst.

Then there are those who are unable to look after themselves - the mentally ill and the alcoholic for example - who too often have only the police to look out for them.

In terms of enforcing transport policing, for the size and reach of the organisation, the DVSA (VOSA as was) do not do nearly enough to make themselves useful.

[markcoznottz]

Dibble said:

This article explains some of the changes in demand on policing. I, and I suspect most of my colleagues, would much rather be “fighting crime” than dealing with people who really should be getting looked after by other, more appropriate agencies.

That doesn’t mean I don’t care about people in crisis, because I do. I just don’t think the police are necessarily the best people to provide the care they need. Despite the protestations in the article, lack of mental health beds IS a frequent problem. A few years ago, in my area we went to a centrally managed hub for MH beds. It’s now almost a daily occurrence to hear over the radio “No beds available, county wide”.

A few years ago, the then Home Secretary, one Theresa May, said the role of the police was to “Deal with crime and the causes of crime, nothing more and nothing less”. Considering that around 80% of calls for service to the police are not crime related, there is obviously a “gap” in who picks up the jobs that aren’t “police” jobs, be that the NHS, social services or any of the other agencies.

Whether any of this has a direct relation to the lack of immediate action I don’t know, but one of the previously linked articles in this thread did say the officers on scene had to be diverted to a report of a man with a knife.

http://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk/news/16304708...

As a Luddite, why do MH patients need 'beds'?

[Greendubber]

markcoznottz said:

Dibble said:

This article explains some of the changes in demand on policing. I, and I suspect most of my colleagues, would much rather be “fighting crime” than dealing with people who really should be getting looked after by other, more appropriate agencies.

That doesn’t mean I don’t care about people in crisis, because I do. I just don’t think the police are necessarily the best people to provide the care they need. Despite the protestations in the article, lack of mental health beds IS a frequent problem. A few years ago, in my area we went to a centrally managed hub for MH beds. It’s now almost a daily occurrence to hear over the radio “No beds available, county wide”.

A few years ago, the then Home Secretary, one Theresa May, said the role of the police was to “Deal with crime and the causes of crime, nothing more and nothing less”. Considering that around 80% of calls for service to the police are not crime related, there is obviously a “gap” in who picks up the jobs that aren’t “police” jobs, be that the NHS, social services or any of the other agencies.

Whether any of this has a direct relation to the lack of immediate action I don’t know, but one of the previously linked articles in this thread did say the officers on scene had to be diverted to a report of a man with a knife.

http://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk/news/16304708...

As a Luddite, why do MH patients need 'beds'?

Because they need treatment, the police are picking up the slack from the organisations that should be dealing with it.

The police are far more accountable so won't say no to the call from the NHS saying 'John Smiths feeling suicidal' even though the NHS should be dealing with it. Police arrive, John says he's suicidal, the police can't leave and are stuck with him until the MH services can deal, which is often a very, very long wait.

You'll get the Section 136 MHA jobs too, when the police detain people. They should be taken to a place of safety, which is a MH facility, sadly they're always full so the police are again sat looking after people, sometimes for days on end.

[98elise]

markcoznottz said:

Dibble said:

This article explains some of the changes in demand on policing. I, and I suspect most of my colleagues, would much rather be “fighting crime” than dealing with people who really should be getting looked after by other, more appropriate agencies.

That doesn’t mean I don’t care about people in crisis, because I do. I just don’t think the police are necessarily the best people to provide the care they need. Despite the protestations in the article, lack of mental health beds IS a frequent problem. A few years ago, in my area we went to a centrally managed hub for MH beds. It’s now almost a daily occurrence to hear over the radio “No beds available, county wide”.

A few years ago, the then Home Secretary, one Theresa May, said the role of the police was to “Deal with crime and the causes of crime, nothing more and nothing less”. Considering that around 80% of calls for service to the police are not crime related, there is obviously a “gap” in who picks up the jobs that aren’t “police” jobs, be that the NHS, social services or any of the other agencies.

Whether any of this has a direct relation to the lack of immediate action I don’t know, but one of the previously linked articles in this thread did say the officers on scene had to be diverted to a report of a man with a knife.

http://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk/news/16304708...

As a Luddite, why do MH patients need 'beds'?

Where are they going to sleep?

Someone with say dementia will need care 24x7. Often care homes will dump unwanted patients on the NHS. If they have a fall or go to hospital the care home refuses to take them back.

In a care home your rights are more like that of a hotel guest than a tenant. If the care home doesn't want you back they can simply throw you out.

[Digga]

Like the old boy that Central Motorways Police group just had to rescue from his stroll down the M6 Toll.

[markcoznottz]

98elise said:

markcoznottz said:

Dibble said:

This article explains some of the changes in demand on policing. I, and I suspect most of my colleagues, would much rather be “fighting crime” than dealing with people who really should be getting looked after by other, more appropriate agencies.

That doesn’t mean I don’t care about people in crisis, because I do. I just don’t think the police are necessarily the best people to provide the care they need. Despite the protestations in the article, lack of mental health beds IS a frequent problem. A few years ago, in my area we went to a centrally managed hub for MH beds. It’s now almost a daily occurrence to hear over the radio “No beds available, county wide”.

A few years ago, the then Home Secretary, one Theresa May, said the role of the police was to “Deal with crime and the causes of crime, nothing more and nothing less”. Considering that around 80% of calls for service to the police are not crime related, there is obviously a “gap” in who picks up the jobs that aren’t “police” jobs, be that the NHS, social services or any of the other agencies.

Whether any of this has a direct relation to the lack of immediate action I don’t know, but one of the previously linked articles in this thread did say the officers on scene had to be diverted to a report of a man with a knife.

http://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk/news/16304708...

As a Luddite, why do MH patients need 'beds'?

Where are they going to sleep?

Someone with say dementia will need care 24x7. Often care homes will dump unwanted patients on the NHS. If they have a fall or go to hospital the care home refuses to take them back.

In a care home your rights are more like that of a hotel guest than a tenant. If the care home doesn't want you back they can simply throw you out.

Presumably the use of those 'syringe drivers' in the NHS was a state sponsored way of accelerating death for old people with failing bodies? But obviously it was not officially sanctioned no one saw anything etc.

[alfaman]

markcoznottz said:

Presumably the use of those 'syringe drivers' in the NHS was a state sponsored way of accelerating death for old people with failing bodies? But obviously it was not officially sanctioned no one saw anything etc.

Or more like accelerated death for people whose bodies were NOT failing (?) ... eg : older fit person goes into hospital for something minor - gets drugged up to the eyeballs and ends up in the morgue

[CoolHands]

One thing that royally pisses me off is when you get some scrote suddenly feigning illness on arrest and they take the to the ER. Total waste of everyone's time, money resources; + all the members of public that have to listen to the pissed up being abusive in the ER etc etc

We need to get tough with wasting our fking money and if that means a chav dies incorrectly every 10 years we, as a society, have to say we're ok with that.

It'll never happen I know, as noone has any backbone to say enough.

[Carrot]

CoolHands said:

One thing that royally pisses me off is when you get some scrote suddenly feigning illness on arrest and they take the to the ER. Total waste of everyone's time, money resources; + all the members of public that have to listen to the pissed up being abusive in the ER etc etc

We need to get tough with wasting our fking money and if that means a chav dies incorrectly every 10 years we, as a society, have to say we're ok with that.

It'll never happen I know, as noone has any backbone to say enough.

I'm in. Sounds like a solid plan. I hate chavs.

I firmly believe they are the beginning proof of (quote from internet) -

"An evolutionary theorist in London suggests that humanity may split into two sub-species within the next 100,000 years. From the article: 'The descendants of the genetic upper class would be tall, slim, healthy, attractive, intelligent, and creative and a far cry from the "underclass" humans who would have evolved into dim-witted, ugly, squat goblin-like creatures.'"

I don't go into town much if I can help it. But whenever I do, I look around and think that this will occur much sooner than 100,000 years...

Edited by Carrot on Monday 25th June 13:54

[anonymous-user]

CoolHands said:

One thing that royally pisses me off is when you get some scrote suddenly feigning illness on arrest and they take the to the ER. Total waste of everyone's time, money resources; + all the members of public that have to listen to the pissed up being abusive in the ER etc etc

We need to get tough with wasting our fking money and if that means a chav dies incorrectly every 10 years we, as a society, have to say we're ok with that.

It'll never happen I know, as noone has any backbone to say enough.

I actually happen to agree with you.

In order to reform the police for the benefit of most people, we'd (society, the government, the police) would have to accept the risk of something bad occurring for a greater benefit.

For example, make more superficial assessments on the phone for 'Facebook threats' garbage to prevent officers being sent on most occasions. The trade-off for all the time saved would be someone would occasionally die / be harmed who otherwise may not have. The problem is 99.9% of those types of incidents are a total waste of time.

The same with repeat missing children etc etc.

The problem is we view everything in isolation rather than take the bigger picture into consideration and try to make balances with some form of perspective.

[Bigends]

La Liga said:

actually happen to agree with you.

In order to reform the police for the benefit of most people, we'd (society, the government, the police) would have to accept the risk of something bad occurring for a greater benefit.

For example, make more superficial assessments on the phone for 'Facebook threats' garbage to prevent officers being sent on most occasions. The trade-off for all the time saved would be someone would occasionally die / be harmed who otherwise may not have. The problem is 99.9% of those types of incidents are a total waste of time.

The same with repeat missing children etc etc.

The problem is we view everything in isolation rather than take the bigger picture into consideration and try to make balances with some form of perspective.

Whos going to carry the can when they get one of these 'superficial assessments' wrong? An experienced controller may be able to make these decisions - many call handlers fresh out of Tescos wont be in a position to.

As is the case with a number of other forces mine has mental health nurses based in the FCR together with a Police driver who attend incidents at the request of officers on scene and assess mental health incidents. Having attended and assessed the subject was not in immediate need of care or control - and were happy to endorse their decision on the incident log, however - the officers in attendance were ignoring their advice in many cases and still detaining the subjects who were subsequently released back to heir home address several hours later having used up valuable hospital and Police time. Trusting the decisions of these experts could free valuable resources. They foound it frustrating that ithey were attending these incidens and in many cases their advice and opinions ignored

Edited by Bigends on Monday 25th June 14:11

[pavarotti1980]

La Liga said:

actually happen to agree with you.

In order to reform the police for the benefit of most people, we'd (society, the government, the police) would have to accept the risk of something bad occurring for a greater benefit.

For example, make more superficial assessments on the phone for 'Facebook threats' garbage to prevent officers being sent on most occasions. The trade-off for all the time saved would be someone would occasionally die / be harmed who otherwise may not have. The problem is 99.9% of those types of incidents are a total waste of time.

The same with repeat missing children etc etc.

The problem is we view everything in isolation rather than take the bigger picture into consideration and try to make balances with some form of perspective.

But to fuel the opposition to this was a BBC1 programme about how the police deal with things over the phone and the public were "outraged".
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0b3q1rm

Cant have it all ways i guess

[anonymous-user]

La Liga said:

CoolHands said:

One thing that royally pisses me off is when you get some scrote suddenly feigning illness on arrest and they take the to the ER. Total waste of everyone's time, money resources; + all the members of public that have to listen to the pissed up being abusive in the ER etc etc

We need to get tough with wasting our fking money and if that means a chav dies incorrectly every 10 years we, as a society, have to say we're ok with that.

It'll never happen I know, as noone has any backbone to say enough.

I actually happen to agree with you.

In order to reform the police for the benefit of most people, we'd (society, the government, the police) would have to accept the risk of something bad occurring for a greater benefit.

For example, make more superficial assessments on the phone for 'Facebook threats' garbage to prevent officers being sent on most occasions. The trade-off for all the time saved would be someone would occasionally die / be harmed who otherwise may not have. The problem is 99.9% of those types of incidents are a total waste of time.

The same with repeat missing children etc etc.

The problem is we view everything in isolation rather than take the bigger picture into consideration and try to make balances with some form of perspective.

I don't think the police or government can be blamed for their current arse covering MO that stretches them so thin. The public have become such a bunch of pansies, incapable of looking at a bigger picture. Some promising footballer dies in custody and it's front page news replete with obligatory sad face pictures of previously absent parents... something must be done! Every fvcking idiot with an internet connection has an 'equally valid opinion' that some d grade journalists give credence to. The authorities don't have much choice pandering to the simpletons or they will be hounded out of a job by our second rate press.

[Greendubber]

fblm said:

La Liga said:

CoolHands said:

One thing that royally pisses me off is when you get some scrote suddenly feigning illness on arrest and they take the to the ER. Total waste of everyone's time, money resources; + all the members of public that have to listen to the pissed up being abusive in the ER etc etc

We need to get tough with wasting our fking money and if that means a chav dies incorrectly every 10 years we, as a society, have to say we're ok with that.

It'll never happen I know, as noone has any backbone to say enough.

I actually happen to agree with you.

In order to reform the police for the benefit of most people, we'd (society, the government, the police) would have to accept the risk of something bad occurring for a greater benefit.

For example, make more superficial assessments on the phone for 'Facebook threats' garbage to prevent officers being sent on most occasions. The trade-off for all the time saved would be someone would occasionally die / be harmed who otherwise may not have. The problem is 99.9% of those types of incidents are a total waste of time.

The same with repeat missing children etc etc.

The problem is we view everything in isolation rather than take the bigger picture into consideration and try to make balances with some form of perspective.

I don't think the police or government can be blamed for their current arse covering MO that stretches them so thin. The public have become such a bunch of pansies, incapable of looking at a bigger picture. Some promising footballer dies in custody and it's front page news replete with obligatory sad face pictures of previously absent parents... something must be done! Every fvcking idiot with an internet connection has an 'equally valid opinion' that some d grade journalists give credence to. The authorities don't have much choice pandering to the simpletons or they will be hounded out of a job by our second rate press.

Yep.

[anonymous-user]

Bigends said:

Whos going to carry the can when they get one of these 'superficial assessments' wrong? An experienced controller may be able to make these decisions - many call handlers fresh out of Tescos wont be in a position to.

That's part of the problem, isn't it? It's a lack of accepting risk in its wider form.

As we are now, we focus too much on the worse case scenario rather than accepting a more 'global likelihood' i.e. nearly all of those incidents are a waste of time as there's rarely any risk / nor any outcome other than to close the incident.

Could time and resources not spending time there reduce risk / harm elsewhere?

Not comfortable thinking for most as it's much less tangible.

Bigends said:

As is the case with a number of other forces mine has mental health nurses based in the FCR together with a Police driver who attend incidents at the request of officers on scene and assess mental health incidents.

MH triage cars are a good resource and can reduce S.136 etc usage as the NHS have additional information in which to help make decisions and can offer 'alternative pathways' there and then.

pavarotti1980 said:

But to fuel the opposition to this was a BBC1 programme about how the police deal with things over the phone and the public were "outraged".
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0b3q1rm

Cant have it all ways i guess

Indeed. Damned if they do, damned if they do not.

fblm said:

I don't think the police or government can be blamed for their current arse covering MO that stretches them so thin. The public have become such a bunch of pansies, incapable of looking at a bigger picture. Some promising footballer dies in custody and it's front page news replete with obligatory sad face pictures of previously absent parents... something must be done! Every fvcking idiot with an internet connection has an 'equally valid opinion' that some d grade journalists give credence to. The authorities don't have much choice pandering to the simpletons or they will be hounded out of a job by our second rate press.

If may well be a vicious feedback loop.

Death > look at in isolation > reviewing / 'learning lessons', which usually translates into more bureaucracy.

[budgie smuggler]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

Or because some pencil pusher has forced this to happen because it saves a few quid.

[markcoznottz]

Bigends said:

La Liga said:

actually happen to agree with you.

In order to reform the police for the benefit of most people, we'd (society, the government, the police) would have to accept the risk of something bad occurring for a greater benefit.

For example, make more superficial assessments on the phone for 'Facebook threats' garbage to prevent officers being sent on most occasions. The trade-off for all the time saved would be someone would occasionally die / be harmed who otherwise may not have. The problem is 99.9% of those types of incidents are a total waste of time.

The same with repeat missing children etc etc.

The problem is we view everything in isolation rather than take the bigger picture into consideration and try to make balances with some form of perspective.

Whos going to carry the can when they get one of these 'superficial assessments' wrong? An experienced controller may be able to make these decisions - many call handlers fresh out of Tescos wont be in a position to.

As is the case with a number of other forces mine has mental health nurses based in the FCR together with a Police driver who attend incidents at the request of officers on scene and assess mental health incidents. Having attended and assessed the subject was not in immediate need of care or control - and were happy to endorse their decision on the incident log, however - the officers in attendance were ignoring their advice in many cases and still detaining the subjects who were subsequently released back to heir home address several hours later having used up valuable hospital and Police time. Trusting the decisions of these experts could free valuable resources. They foound it frustrating that ithey were attending these incidens and in many cases their advice and opinions ignored

Edited by Bigends on Monday 25th June 14:11

The individuals who cause 99% of the problems obviously don't care about the effect they have on the system, in fact the selfishness of some folk is astounding. Would be interesting to know the background of the retard with the knife who called officers away from thwaites. Was he the usual serial time waster etc.

[Dindoit]

You could have camps for them. Concentrate them all together.

[KAgantua]

Dindoit said:

You could have camps for them. Concentrate them all together.

Concentration glamping?

[Dibble]

Five arrests made:

Thwaites: Five arrested over 'trashed' brewery http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lancashire-44...