New kinds of governments.
Discussion
In the UK and the USA and many western democracies, it seems people are suffering with polarisation of the population and being forced to make choices in elections between parties that don’t really represent them. Many people are either ideologically tied to one party or just going for the least worst option all the time.
Perhaps the answer is that although democracy is the answer, modern politics are bit broken. We’ve just got career politicians focused on serving themselves and getting re-elected. Then they go to another layer of government, the House of Lords so the self serving continues. Many people are just tied to a party so simply vote for them regardless. We have democracy but there are only really two choices. It’s not really that democratic.
It’s certainly time for a shake up. Perhaps we need some new kind of government or layer of government replacing the House of Lords made up of randomly selected people based on the make up of the population. All these low probability outcomes people complain about brexit, trump, Corbyn etc are the results of governments being disconected from the population. Maybe the population themselves should be more directly involved in policy and decisions?
True democracy needs the population to be more empowered and involved in descision making, the ancient Greeks who started democracy knew this and used sortition as a part of the political process.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sortition..
Should people be more involved in descisions like in a jury or are people stupid and we should just have political parties making decisions on our behalf?
Perhaps the answer is that although democracy is the answer, modern politics are bit broken. We’ve just got career politicians focused on serving themselves and getting re-elected. Then they go to another layer of government, the House of Lords so the self serving continues. Many people are just tied to a party so simply vote for them regardless. We have democracy but there are only really two choices. It’s not really that democratic.
It’s certainly time for a shake up. Perhaps we need some new kind of government or layer of government replacing the House of Lords made up of randomly selected people based on the make up of the population. All these low probability outcomes people complain about brexit, trump, Corbyn etc are the results of governments being disconected from the population. Maybe the population themselves should be more directly involved in policy and decisions?
True democracy needs the population to be more empowered and involved in descision making, the ancient Greeks who started democracy knew this and used sortition as a part of the political process.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sortition..
Should people be more involved in descisions like in a jury or are people stupid and we should just have political parties making decisions on our behalf?
The models we use today are based on the reality of communications in the 18th and 19th century. We have such abilities these days to communicate our wishes that it is perhaps about time that new systems were invented. Unfortunately, changing the status quo of current government methods is extremely hard and can often end up with revolution and violence.
I remember the SDP being a good earnest try but ultimately a flop in the 80s.
Many look back quite understandably and say “trying again will never work”
But does Macron and todays vastly different media mean that SDP history lesson not apply?
Morgan, Chuka and Clegg and new team - led by the Milliband who wasn’t a chump? Easy to dismiss as fantasy, but......
More appealing than May, Boris and Davis, and Corbyn & co?
Many look back quite understandably and say “trying again will never work”
But does Macron and todays vastly different media mean that SDP history lesson not apply?
Morgan, Chuka and Clegg and new team - led by the Milliband who wasn’t a chump? Easy to dismiss as fantasy, but......
More appealing than May, Boris and Davis, and Corbyn & co?
We don't have representational democracy. We have pretend democracy. In truth the public are almost never allowed to make a meaningful choice. As demonstrated by the ongoing wailing and gnashing of teeth over Brexit and Trump - given real choice they don't vote the "right way" and the results have to be "managed down" to effectively the same final outcome as if the vote had gone the other way.
Why would those in power allow that to change?
Why would those in power allow that to change?
grumbledoak said:
We don't have representational democracy. We have pretend democracy. In truth the public are almost never allowed to make a meaningful choice. As demonstrated by the ongoing wailing and gnashing of teeth over Brexit and Trump - given real choice they don't vote the "right way" and the results have to be "managed down" to effectively the same final outcome as if the vote had gone the other way.
Why would those in power allow that to change?
I don't often agree with ken L but as he put it (to paraphrase) "voting doesn't change anything, if it did they'd ban it"Why would those in power allow that to change?
irocfan said:
grumbledoak said:
We don't have representational democracy. We have pretend democracy. In truth the public are almost never allowed to make a meaningful choice. As demonstrated by the ongoing wailing and gnashing of teeth over Brexit and Trump - given real choice they don't vote the "right way" and the results have to be "managed down" to effectively the same final outcome as if the vote had gone the other way.
Why would those in power allow that to change?
I don't often agree with ken L but as he put it (to paraphrase) "voting doesn't change anything, if it did they'd ban it"Why would those in power allow that to change?
Rather than vote to change Europe (what people want), the option was suck it up or leave. The majority of voters, from either side, wanted to remain in the union but without the bureaucracy (dictatorship in some respects), cost and ill-thought policies which fail to serve the people they're meant to represent. We might as well have voted on whether we like clouds - that's 'Western democracy' in action.
irocfan said:
I don't often agree with ken L but as he put it (to paraphrase) "voting doesn't change anything, if it did they'd ban it"
I think there are big changes coming to how countries govern and organise themselves.
Increasing automation and connectivity will probably lead to new kinds of economies. Kids in different countries are growing up with the same influences through Netflix and amazon and YouTube. They don’t have the same notions of nation and country that their parents have. They often see themselves as global citizens and aren’t defined by where they happen to have been born.
The whole concept of nationality seems odd when you think about it. That somehow where you’re born might define your world view and chances in life and connections with other people.
It is no wonder that the public show so much apathy towards voting when the choice is between Scumbag 1 and Scumbag 2. As Billy Connolly said, "The desire to be a politician should bar you for life from ever becoming one.”Don't vote. It just encourages them...."
The fundamental problem with politics is that power goes to those who crave it; usually with undesirable results. If a jury is a good method for a court, perhaps that is what we should do for government. Some sort of filters would be needed to weed out criminals, but it should get a more representative cross-section of society thant the current mix of ex-lawyers, ex-journalists and ex-political agents. A letter through your door which reads, 'You are now an MP for the next four years, like it or lump it' has got to be worth a try.
The fundamental problem with politics is that power goes to those who crave it; usually with undesirable results. If a jury is a good method for a court, perhaps that is what we should do for government. Some sort of filters would be needed to weed out criminals, but it should get a more representative cross-section of society thant the current mix of ex-lawyers, ex-journalists and ex-political agents. A letter through your door which reads, 'You are now an MP for the next four years, like it or lump it' has got to be worth a try.
“Many people are either ideologically tied to one party or just going for the least worst option all the time.”
This was me from about 18-40. I’ve since found a third way and sadly, that’s not to bother voting.
Ideally, I want to vote for someone/a party that I’d like to have represent me locally, nationally and internationally. The current crop of politicians appear to me to be in a race to the bottom. I’m sure it’s a very difficult job (certainly not one I’d want) but they all seem inept (and simply unpleasant in many cases) beyond belief.
I’m sure I’m not alone in my apathy and I suspect my attitude toward politics does help fuel the reasonable belief that we get the politicians we deserve. I’m sometimes envious of my friends who, mostly on Facebook, openly show their support for a political party, even if it is usually for Corbyn (I clearly need a friend purge) but I’ve looked at what’s on offer and none of it is for me.
Very defeatist/selfish attitude I know but if I was forced to vote it would be for the party that lets me keep most of my own money. In the meantime I’m happy (sort of) to continue to not participate.
I’d love a new centre right party to come along and ignite some interest in me but it needs to be fresh faces and ideas, not formed be the likes of Clegg, Morgan, Blair, etc.
Not me though, I’d be really rubbish.
This was me from about 18-40. I’ve since found a third way and sadly, that’s not to bother voting.
Ideally, I want to vote for someone/a party that I’d like to have represent me locally, nationally and internationally. The current crop of politicians appear to me to be in a race to the bottom. I’m sure it’s a very difficult job (certainly not one I’d want) but they all seem inept (and simply unpleasant in many cases) beyond belief.
I’m sure I’m not alone in my apathy and I suspect my attitude toward politics does help fuel the reasonable belief that we get the politicians we deserve. I’m sometimes envious of my friends who, mostly on Facebook, openly show their support for a political party, even if it is usually for Corbyn (I clearly need a friend purge) but I’ve looked at what’s on offer and none of it is for me.
Very defeatist/selfish attitude I know but if I was forced to vote it would be for the party that lets me keep most of my own money. In the meantime I’m happy (sort of) to continue to not participate.
I’d love a new centre right party to come along and ignite some interest in me but it needs to be fresh faces and ideas, not formed be the likes of Clegg, Morgan, Blair, etc.
Not me though, I’d be really rubbish.
If/when the HoL is reformed sortition would be infinitely preferable to another chamber filled with the usual suspects who are approved by the weirdos who sit on selection committees at constituency party level or parachuted in by central office. Some means of filtering out the chaff is required, trial by ordeal perhaps, or if that's too bloody then a maximum of one term in office and open primaries.
El stovey said:
I think there are big changes coming to how countries govern and organise themselves.
Increasing automation and connectivity will probably lead to new kinds of economies. Kids in different countries are growing up with the same influences through Netflix and amazon and YouTube. They don’t have the same notions of nation and country that their parents have. They often see themselves as global citizens and aren’t defined by where they happen to have been born.
The whole concept of nationality seems odd when you think about it. That somehow where you’re born might define your world view and chances in life and connections with other people.
Gloria Slap said:
I remember the SDP being a good earnest try but ultimately a flop in the 80s.
Many look back quite understandably and say “trying again will never work”
But does Macron and todays vastly different media mean that SDP history lesson not apply?
Morgan, Chuka and Clegg and new team - led by the Milliband who wasn’t a chump? Easy to dismiss as fantasy, but......
More appealing than May, Boris and Davis, and Corbyn & co?
The SDP were a product of polarisation of the two main parties and an ineffectual liberal party. Labour had moved to the left and the tories were under the control of right wingers. The Liberal party had no particular policy. Deja vu all over again. Many look back quite understandably and say “trying again will never work”
But does Macron and todays vastly different media mean that SDP history lesson not apply?
Morgan, Chuka and Clegg and new team - led by the Milliband who wasn’t a chump? Easy to dismiss as fantasy, but......
More appealing than May, Boris and Davis, and Corbyn & co?
At the time I found it inspiring. The gang of four consisted of three quality MPs. There was Steel of course, but no party is perfect. I didn't agree with all that they were suggesting but it was close enough. There was a poll that put them at 40%.
I'd left factory work but there was one of my old firms nearby. My old colleagues were all supporters of the SDP, despite suggesting they were left of centre.
The tories were squabbling and I felt this was going to be a chance to change the bilateral nature of politics forever. The papers were generally against the new party and there were suggestions that a vote for the SDP would let in the party you didn't want. Support faded and they went into partnership with the liberals and all the fervour and new ideas just vanished. What might have been.
I now have no vote. I live in a safe seat, this despite the incumbent doing little for the area. He's a waste of space. There was a local libdem who did a lot for the local area when I moved in but has since moved on.
Democracy seems moribund. Many seem to vote uncritically.
El stovey said:
In the UK and the USA and many western democracies, it seems people are suffering with polarisation of the population and being forced to make choices in elections between parties that don’t really represent them. Many people are either ideologically tied to one party or just going for the least worst option all the time.
Perhaps the answer is that although democracy is the answer, modern politics are bit broken. We’ve just got career politicians focused on serving themselves and getting re-elected. Then they go to another layer of government, the House of Lords so the self serving continues. Many people are just tied to a party so simply vote for them regardless. We have democracy but there are only really two choices. It’s not really that democratic.
It’s certainly time for a shake up. Perhaps we need some new kind of government or layer of government replacing the House of Lords made up of randomly selected people based on the make up of the population. All these low probability outcomes people complain about brexit, trump, Corbyn etc are the results of governments being disconected from the population. Maybe the population themselves should be more directly involved in policy and decisions?
True democracy needs the population to be more empowered and involved in descision making, the ancient Greeks who started democracy knew this and used sortition as a part of the political process.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sortition..
Should people be more involved in descisions like in a jury or are people stupid and we should just have political parties making decisions on our behalf?
more referendum, or a regular public vote seems on the surface a nice idea, you could have say 3 basic outline budgets with a vote on the final so the public could decide, broadly speaking, on the direction of public spending. Like said above the representative system predates modern communication and logistical systems.Perhaps the answer is that although democracy is the answer, modern politics are bit broken. We’ve just got career politicians focused on serving themselves and getting re-elected. Then they go to another layer of government, the House of Lords so the self serving continues. Many people are just tied to a party so simply vote for them regardless. We have democracy but there are only really two choices. It’s not really that democratic.
It’s certainly time for a shake up. Perhaps we need some new kind of government or layer of government replacing the House of Lords made up of randomly selected people based on the make up of the population. All these low probability outcomes people complain about brexit, trump, Corbyn etc are the results of governments being disconected from the population. Maybe the population themselves should be more directly involved in policy and decisions?
True democracy needs the population to be more empowered and involved in descision making, the ancient Greeks who started democracy knew this and used sortition as a part of the political process.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sortition..
Should people be more involved in descisions like in a jury or are people stupid and we should just have political parties making decisions on our behalf?
But then, do you have the plot of a black mirror episode with public services forced to audition and campaign the public for their survival?
Also whatever system of government you settle on should be able to operate, in a way thats democratic, should we suffer technical blackout.
BeastieBoy73 said:
Ideally, I want to vote for someone/a party that I’d like to have represent me locally, nationally and internationally. The current crop of politicians appear to me to be in a race to the bottom. I’m sure it’s a very difficult job (certainly not one I’d want) but they all seem inept (and simply unpleasant in many cases) beyond belief.
I’m sure I’m not alone in my apathy and I suspect my attitude toward politics does help fuel the reasonable belief that we get the politicians we deserve.
If you think you could do a better job than the candidates for your constituency, then... stand.I’m sure I’m not alone in my apathy and I suspect my attitude toward politics does help fuel the reasonable belief that we get the politicians we deserve.
https://www.parliament.uk/get-involved/elections/s...
Just maybe lots of other people in your area also think that the other candidates are idiots, and would welcome somebody like... you? All you need to do is convince them.
TooMany2cvs said:
BeastieBoy73 said:
Ideally, I want to vote for someone/a party that I’d like to have represent me locally, nationally and internationally. The current crop of politicians appear to me to be in a race to the bottom. I’m sure it’s a very difficult job (certainly not one I’d want) but they all seem inept (and simply unpleasant in many cases) beyond belief.
I’m sure I’m not alone in my apathy and I suspect my attitude toward politics does help fuel the reasonable belief that we get the politicians we deserve.
If you think you could do a better job than the candidates for your constituency, then... stand.I’m sure I’m not alone in my apathy and I suspect my attitude toward politics does help fuel the reasonable belief that we get the politicians we deserve.
https://www.parliament.uk/get-involved/elections/s...
Just maybe lots of other people in your area also think that the other candidates are idiots, and would welcome somebody like... you? All you need to do is convince them.
El stovey said:
.... it seems people are suffering with polarisation of the population
The recent generation of media (social, TV and newspapers), are largely to blame for this in my opinion. This generates anger which in turn generates interest and attention, which is what media thrives on.I dare say that an amount is also 'injected' by foreign interests in attempts to destabilize democracies around the world.
But I would argue that in times of polarization much better we stick to our traditional government rule and our democratic systems.
Any change would be a huge opportunity to be taken advantage of, not only by lobby groups but also by foreign interests.
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