45th President of the United States, Donald Trump. (Vol 5)

[esxste]

avinalarf said:

He is a populist ...he tells his supporters what they want to hear.
He legitimises their fears and concerns.
He offers them hope of a better life.
He is "making America great again". His words not mine.
Why wouldn't they support him .....regardless.
For years they were ignored and patronised by the establishment.
An establishment that told its own porkies over time.
An example being Bush and WMD causing a war that killed millions and unstabliised a continent if not the World.
So is it that surprising that Trump's supporters feed into his messages however misguided.

I wonder what the correlation between Trump Supporters and 9/11 conspiracy theory believers are.

[Eric Mc]

Atomic12C said:

Is that minority-ist?

I'm sure there'll be a left wing term for that grouping of people.


Anyways, democracy is what it is, the west has fought to promote it and export it all over the world - even removed forms of rule in a number of countries to install democratic systems.
Embrace it ! haha

I do embrace it. The good news is that even when a democratic system throws a wobbly, there is always the chance that the "wobbly" will be reversed. The danger is that the winner under the "wobbly" may seek to undermine and destroy the very democracy that allowed them to win in the first place.

[jjlynn27]

avinalarf said:

Ho,ho ....it might take a book.
Very briefly.....by acknowledging them....
People see injustices or perceived injustices.
The establishment's response, if any, might be to say, for example.....
a )" Nothing to see here ".
b) " You are a racist ".
c) " We know what's best for you".
For years the political establishment have patronised or demonised that large minority that have voiced concerns and those concerns have been brushed aside.
For any society to operate successfully the laws that govern that society must be fair and just and be acknowledged to be so, to all in that society.


The reasons that lay behind those laws

I get all that, and it's probably my clumsily worded question, so I'll try differently; What would you expect the government to say to acknowledge someone's concern that, for example, foreigners are responsible for the decline in, for the lack of better word, native's wage.
Do you think that govt/establishment could say; 'Look, here is the study that shows that immigration is actually not the reason for the decline in your living standards'.
Do you think that that would work? If not how else do you think that govt could acknowledge those concerns so that those people don't see themselves ignored?

[Eric Mc]

esxste said:

I wonder what the correlation between Trump Supporters and 9/11 conspiracy theory believers are.

I would hazard a guess that quite a few (maybe not the majority but perhaps a substantial minority) of those who voted for Trump and enthusiastically support him are the types who may harbour an interest in all sorts of imagined "government instigated conspiracies".

[Challo]

p1stonhead said:

Gameface said:

FN2TypeR said:

He is currently going off on one on Twitter; his biggest rant for quite some time

In the last hour (oldest tweet first):

Tom Fitton on @foxandfriends at 6:15 A.M. NOW! Judicial Watch.

So we now find out that it was indeed the unverified and Fake Dirty Dossier, that was paid for by Crooked Hillary Clinton and the DNC, that was knowingly & falsely submitted to FISA and which was responsible for starting the totally conflicted and discredited Mueller Witch Hunt!

“It was classified to cover up misconduct by the FBI and the Justice Department in misleading the Court by using this Dossier in a dishonest way to gain a warrant to target the Trump Team. This is a Clinton Campaign document. It was a fraud and a hoax designed to target Trump....

....and the DOJ, FBI and Obama Gang need to be held to account. Source #1 was the major source. Avoided talking about it being the Clinton campaign behind it. Misled the Court to provide a pretext to SPY on the Trump Team. Not about Carter Page..was all about getting Trump.....

.....”Carter Page wasn’t a spy, wasn’t an agent of the Russians - he would have cooperated with the FBI. It was a fraud and a hoax designed to target Trump.” Tom Fitton @JudicialWatch A disgrace to America. They should drop the discredited Mueller Witch Hunt now!

He should be sectioned.

He is basically shouting ‘DO SOMETHING’ but to who?

He knows he can’t himself. Who is he expecting to?

He is just sowing that seed of doubt in the american public. If you say it enough, people will believe it.

[Byker28i]

Gameface said:

The amount of people he's called liars etc beggars belief.

Which is why there's a number of lawsuits against him for just that

[vonuber]

PAULJ5555 said:

Funny old world aint it.

You still haven't said whether you are off to protest.

[Byker28i]

vonuber said:

PAULJ5555 said:

Funny old world aint it.

You still haven't said whether you are off to protest.

Of course not - it's so much more Daily Mail to complain on the internet..

[Byker28i]

PAULJ5555 said:

BMRuss said:

PAULJ5555 said:

Today saw the arrival of Emir Tamim Bin Hamad Al-Thani of Qatar visiting the UK.

They enforce Sharia Law, have less rights for women, being Gay is punishable by death.

So any protests in London? a bigger cause to protest than Trumpy. The lefties have gone very quiet today.

Of course they've gone quiet, there won't be any protests as it's cool to bash Trump, it's pathetic and they have no consistency at all!

Funny old world aint it.

Where people ignore the fact there are protests but won't take part in them, preferring to winge on the internet instead?

[Byker28i]

I thought the donald said wages would rise if he had huge tax cuts for the rich...

Q2 figures are looking very disappointing for workers.


https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2018-07-18...

[Byker28i]

Eric Mc said:

I don't even think his supporters do. They actually LIKE the fact that he is erratic, untrustworthy and generally shouts a lot.

I'm still waiting on one to exclaim what a genius he is for adopting the same tactics with Iran as he did with North Korea. Get annoyed, threaten them with nuclear war and ultimate destruction, pop over somewhere near for a chat, claim the whole thing is resolved because you're a genius, then watch as nothing changes...

[Atomic12C]

Eric Mc said:

I do embrace it. The good news is that even when a democratic system throws a wobbly, there is always the chance that the "wobbly" will be reversed. The danger is that the winner under the "wobbly" may seek to undermine and destroy the very democracy that allowed them to win in the first place.

"Wobbly", as you describe it, is all about if you support the winning party or not - another aspect of democracy.

But also to pick up on "undermine" and "destroy", this comes down to a higher level of 'power' called the constitution. To change a nation's constitution requires a lot more than just the single person that may be head of state.
But what winning parties can do is gerrymandering (changing electoral boundaries) for example which is common place.

I know Trump comes across as "all powerful" to many, but I think you are affording him more power than he has actually got.
All Trump can do when it comes to American democracy is enter his name for the next election - beyond that its all rhetoric, shouty stuff and name calling.

[Byker28i]

....”Carter Page wasn’t a spy, wasn’t an agent of the Russians - he would have cooperated with the FBI. It was a fraud and a hoax designed to target Trump.” Tom Fitton @JudicialWatch A disgrace to America. They should drop the discredited Mueller Witch Hunt now!

✅Trump campaign director—INDICTED
✅Trump NSA—PLEA
✅Trump deputy campaign director—PLEA
✅Trump campaign advisor—PLEA
✅Lawyer to campaign advisor—PLEA
✅Trump deputy campaign director—PLEA
✅13 Kremlin conspirators—INDICTED
✅Trump personal lawyer—under federal investigation

[Eric Mc]

Atomic12C said:

"Wobbly", as you describe it, is all about if you support the winning party or not - another aspect of democracy.

But also to pick up on "undermine" and "destroy", this comes down to a higher level of 'power' called the constitution. To change a nation's constitution requires a lot more than just the single person that may be head of state.
But what winning parties can do is gerrymandering (changing electoral boundaries) for example which is common place.

I know Trump comes across as "all powerful" to many, but I think you are affording him more power than he has actually got.
All Trump can do when it comes to American democracy is enter his name for the next election - beyond that its all rhetoric, shouty stuff and name calling.

The fact that he desires to be "all powerful" is a danger sign enough for me. The Constitution must be upheld against any attacks by this clown. The danger is that somebody smarter but equally desirous of absolute power may some day get to be President and that would be even worse.

The one good thing about this shambolic episode is that it has exposed weaknesses in the way the country is run and the legality or otherwise of certain actions of the President - just as Watergate did 40 plus years ago.


And no, I do not classify "the other side" (whatever that means) winning as being a "wobbly". That is normal and there have been Presidents of all persuasions in my lifetime. Trump is a very different kettle of fish. Indeed, that was his appeal - but it's also his danger.

[Tony33]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

[Atomic12C]

Eric Mc said:

Atomic12C said:

"Wobbly", as you describe it, is all about if you support the winning party or not - another aspect of democracy.

But also to pick up on "undermine" and "destroy", this comes down to a higher level of 'power' called the constitution. To change a nation's constitution requires a lot more than just the single person that may be head of state.
But what winning parties can do is gerrymandering (changing electoral boundaries) for example which is common place.

I know Trump comes across as "all powerful" to many, but I think you are affording him more power than he has actually got.
All Trump can do when it comes to American democracy is enter his name for the next election - beyond that its all rhetoric, shouty stuff and name calling.

The fact that he desires to be "all powerful" is a danger sign enough for me. The Constitution must be upheld against any attacks by this clown. The danger is that somebody smarter but equally desirous of absolute power may some day get to be President and that would be even worse.

The one good thing about this shambolic episode is that it has exposed weaknesses in the way the country is run and the legality or otherwise of certain actions of the President - just as Watergate did 40 plus years ago.


And no, I do not classify "the other side" (whatever that means) winning as being a "wobbly". That is normal and there have been Presidents of all persuasions in my lifetime. Trump is a very different kettle of fish. Indeed, that was his appeal - but it's also his danger.

That's more or less what I am saying, the POTUS is unable by himself/herself to change the constitution, no matter who it is. There is no danger of Trump doing this - as it wouldn't be Trump, it would have to be something voted through the senate - (happy to be corrected on that of course).
So I think your fear for the well-being of the american public is a bit OTT and you'll be 'glad' to know that the America constitution is something that not even the deaths of many many school children in countless shootings can seemingly change.

Just as a question of curiosity - do you see Trump as a danger to you personally?


(The word 'glad' above is in quote as obviously there can be no positive feelings about such shootings in question - its just a term for reference to the ability of the head of state in america not being able to change the constitution - Obama tried and failed on this respect. And the constitution is set up in such a way that such a power hungry president is unable to change it to suit).

[Eric Mc]

Trump has certain powers (as President) beyond the Constitution - and he certainly has the power to screw up international relations. So, to answer your question, of course I am scared of his actions - as should everybody. Put a cretin in charge of a very influential country, then he will influence things in a cretinous way.

That's what he is doing.

I am optimistic that the US Constitution will survive.

I'm not optimistic when it comes to Trump's effect on world matters and I am sure he will cause untold damage to the US and to the world as he blunders his way through his Presidency.

[captain_cynic]

Atomic12C said:

That's more or less what I am saying, the POTUS is unable by himself/herself to change the constitution, no matter who it is. There is no danger of Trump doing this

However there is a preceident of the US Constitution being ignored by a US president, George W Bush dismissed it as "just a piece of paper".

I would, for sts and giggles, like to Trump try to order the bombing of another country in a fit of pique, publicly to see it slammed down by the JCS.

Edited by captain_cynic on Monday 23 July 15:27

[Eric Mc]

captain_cynic said:

However there is a preceident of the US Constitution being ignored by a US president, George W Bush dismissed it as "just a piece of paper".

I would, for sts and giggles, like to Trump try to order the bombing of another country in a fit of pique, publicly to see it slammed down by the JCS.

Edited by captain_cynic on Monday 23 July 15:27

Which is the premise of this novel -

[avinalarf]

jjlynn27 said:

avinalarf said:

Ho,ho ....it might take a book.
Very briefly.....by acknowledging them....
People see injustices or perceived injustices.
The establishment's response, if any, might be to say, for example.....
a )" Nothing to see here ".
b) " You are a racist ".
c) " We know what's best for you".
For years the political establishment have patronised or demonised that large minority that have voiced concerns and those concerns have been brushed aside.
For any society to operate successfully the laws that govern that society must be fair and just and be acknowledged to be so, to all in that society.


The reasons that lay behind those laws

I get all that, and it's probably my clumsily worded question, so I'll try differently; What would you expect the government to say to acknowledge someone's concern that, for example, foreigners are responsible for the decline in, for the lack of better word, native's wage.
Do you think that govt/establishment could say; 'Look, here is the study that shows that immigration is actually not the reason for the decline in your living standards'.
Do you think that that would work? If not how else do you think that govt could acknowledge those concerns so that those people don't see themselves ignored?

The political establishment and those that serve it, civil servants,the judiciary etc. are responsible for devising laws and regulations that govern how we live our lives.
If they make regulations that will or may affect our lives, either in a perceived or real manner, it is only reasonable that, when questioned, the answers given are transparent and truthful and address the query and/or concern in an unambiguous manner.
If laws are made that appear to favour one section of society over another, that will create resentment.
If laws are not in place that punish law breakers because they are too difficult and complex to formulate so that those sophisticated law breakers are not punished., that will cause resentment.
I do not believe that citing statistics always reflects that which people know, by personal experience or observation to be true.
Do you really want examples ?
1) Teling people their jobs and/or standard of living will not or could not be affected by a large influx of foreign workers.
2) Not admitting that a large influx of immigrants to town or village will change the nature of that area.
So tell the truth....give the reasons whist explaining why you think that those changes will benefit that community.

Edited by avinalarf on Monday 23 July 15:34