45th President of the United States, Donald Trump. (Vol 5)

45th President of the United States, Donald Trump. (Vol 5)

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pablo

15,227 posts

233 months

Wednesday 11th July 2018
quotequote all
Nanook said:
No one is forcing anyone to buy overpriced US equipment. As an example, since you mentioned Slovakia, they operate Russian MiG-29s.

Why should they meet 2%? If you want to enjoy the benefits of membership you should be paying what has been agreed to be the 'going rate'
I agree, but what gives one person, with the biggest wallet, the right to set the budget? Is like going out with your mates and the richest saying "were going to the ritz lads, split the bill?" er, no thanks.

I'd wager that a lot of NATO countries get better value for money than the UK and US and spend less than 2%.


djc206

7,461 posts

85 months

Wednesday 11th July 2018
quotequote all
Nanook said:
The US is not setting the budget. And the point is, the 'splitting the bill' is based on how much money you have. Not a completely even share of the total amount.

A 'pub' analogy that would work could be:

You go to the pub with your mate.

You make twice what he does, so every time the kitty jar is empty, you stick in a tenner, he only pays in a fiver. Only, he's actually only paying in £3. He has the rest, he's just choosing not to spend it.

Seem fair?

Maybe you'd say something about it, or ultimately stop going to the pub with him?
That analogy doesn’t work because it assumes you’re subsidising the other blokes drinking. The yanks are not picking up anyone’s tab. They’ve bought a Rolls Royce when we’ve all agreed to buy golfs but a few mates realised the equivalent Seat was cheaper and went with that option. That he now wants everyone to buy a Rolls Royce because he feels a tit turning up to a Spoons in a Roller is hilarious. 4%, what a knob.

djc206

7,461 posts

85 months

Wednesday 11th July 2018
quotequote all
Nanook said:
The basic maths is not difficult. Everyone is expected to spend 2% of what they've got. He's not expecting everyone to buy Rollers. He's expecting the plasterer to buy a Ford Focus he can give lifts to them all in, not a 20 year old Ka.

These analogies are getting weird laugh

The agreement suggests (and this is perhaps open to interpretation) that if everyone spends 2%, that's enough spending by all to provide the agreed level of security.

Forget what Trumps is saying for a minute. Does it seem fair that most people aren't paying their agreed fair share?
Haha yeah that’s fair enough.

I would suggest that they’re spending smart. Germany’s and Frances armed forces are quite capable and yet they’re managing to stick under 2%. When 2024 comes around if they haven’t upped their expenditures to 2% then yes he will have a solid argument that the majority of NATO isn’t fulfilling its obligations to the other members. As one of the nations meeting the target I really don’t mind that some are under. Maybe it’s time we reviewed the target and lowered it? It would appear that it was a bit pie in the sky for many nations anyway.

djc206

7,461 posts

85 months

Wednesday 11th July 2018
quotequote all
Nanook said:
Could be sensible, wars aren't fought in the same way these days, there's an argument that defence spending doesn't need to be so high. I'd imagine you'd have to get all parties to agree to such a change. Good luck getting the orange one to sign off on that though.
Not a chance, if he’s not in office in 2024 might be an option though

mikal83

5,057 posts

212 months

Wednesday 11th July 2018
quotequote all
Byker28i said:
pablo said:
What possible reason does Slovakia or Italy have for example, to meet the 2%? Who are they likely to require defence from? No doubt they will support an allied response with ground troops should it be required, but in reality, forcing countries to purchase overpriced US military kit where they have no home market is ridiculous.

Look at the list of active US military aircraft, its enormous, why? Jane's lists their fleet of F16s as over 1,000?! 1,000 of one platform?! US need to massively trim their military but can't because it's a core vote winner, as a result Trump is bullying the rest of NATO to match their unsustainable costs.
Of course if someone like Putin wanted to justify his 'defensive forces', having NATO increase their spending would be handy...
Not that NATO stepped in for Ukraine, Crimea...
Is Ukraine in Nato?

pablo

15,227 posts

233 months

Wednesday 11th July 2018
quotequote all
Yes I'm confused by the analogies too sorry.

I just see the big defence companies wanting to know where the next big order is coming from, lobbying the Govt and using Trump as the mouthpiece. He's already proven he's easy to play and lots of people and organisations can take advantage. As someone said, the rest of NATO should ask Trump to reduce spending, the visible difference to operations would be negligible.

djc206

7,461 posts

85 months

Wednesday 11th July 2018
quotequote all
Nanook said:
mikal83 said:
Is Ukraine in Nato?
Yes.
It has a partnership plan it’s not a proper member

NRS

16,270 posts

161 months

Wednesday 11th July 2018
quotequote all
Nanook said:
The US is not setting the budget. And the point is, the 'splitting the bill' is based on how much money you have. Not a completely even share of the total amount.

A 'pub' analogy that would work could be:

You go to the pub with your mate.

You make twice what he does, so every time the kitty jar is empty, you stick in a tenner, he only pays in a fiver. Only, he's actually only paying in £3. He has the rest, he's just choosing not to spend it.

Seem fair?

Maybe you'd say something about it, or ultimately stop going to the pub with him?
The thing is you putting in your £10 often goes out on a massive bender and has a lot of drinks (goes to war in other countries). Your mate contributing his £5 has a few extra drinks to support you, but wasn't really into a wild night to start with.

Your mate also decided not to bother going to the cinema (Paris Climate agreement) and the opera (Iran deal) despite previously having agreed to it. Which is what you really want to do instead of the benders.

NRS

16,270 posts

161 months

Wednesday 11th July 2018
quotequote all
Nanook said:
NRS said:
The thing is you putting in your £10 often goes out on a massive bender and has a lot of drinks (goes to war in other countries). Your mate contributing his £5 has a few extra drinks to support you, but wasn't really into a wild night to start with.

Your mate also decided not to bother going to the cinema (Paris Climate agreement) and the opera (Iran deal) despite previously having agreed to it. Which is what you really want to do instead of the benders.
Sounds like you don't want to hang out with this guy anymore. Should probably leave the group?
Or him, since everyone else seems to be happy putting in £3 and going to the opera and cinema.

Escapegoat

5,026 posts

95 months

Wednesday 11th July 2018
quotequote all
powerstroke said:
Seems like he is 100% on the money when he says Germany is far too dependent on Russia
for gas ... no sorry he is in Putins pocket ...biggrin
100% ... he lied (again).

He claimed 60-70% of Germany's energy was from Russia, and it's actually about 13%.

NRS

16,270 posts

161 months

Wednesday 11th July 2018
quotequote all
Escapegoat said:
100% ... he lied (again).

He claimed 60-70% of Germany's energy was from Russia, and it's actually about 13%.
I'd guess Norway is a big gas contributor? And Germany was doing a bit more coal again recently I believe?

Eric Mc

113,110 posts

225 months

Wednesday 11th July 2018
quotequote all
He just makes up the numbers. He's already admitted to it on other occasions.

Halb

51,731 posts

143 months

Wednesday 11th July 2018
quotequote all
Kinky said:
Following on from Vol. 4 here: https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...

So before we start this new a volume, a very polite notice .... any posts deemed as trollesque will have the PHer permanently banned from N, P and E.

We saw how nice the previous thread was when appropriate action was taken. If people don't want to learn from that, then there's little I can do.

So go fill 'yer boots folks, and please lets keep it civil and polite thumbup
Nice to see you're contributing your 2% dues to NpeATO agreement

Tartan Pixie

1,736 posts

107 months

Wednesday 11th July 2018
quotequote all
Nanook said:
On a night where England look to be making it to another world cup final, I'm just saying, play the ball, not the man.
Oops. Gutted frown

djc206

7,461 posts

85 months

Wednesday 11th July 2018
quotequote all
Eric Mc said:
He just makes up the numbers. He's already admitted to it on other occasions.
It would appear in this instance that he’s heard that number and incorrectly attributed it to German energy rather than German gas consumption for which it would be reasonably accurate.

In fairness winter would be pretty bleak in Germany if Russia shut off its pipelines but something tells me that it would bankrupt Russia before it froze the Germans.

Halb

51,731 posts

143 months

Wednesday 11th July 2018
quotequote all
Mr E said:
I think all volumes should be printed, and then performed as some form of avant guard play.

smile
laugh

brilliant


I wonder how the director would handle the one who was obsessed with masturbation

El stovey

35,332 posts

223 months

Wednesday 11th July 2018
quotequote all
midenginedcoupe said:
AnotherClarkey said:
jjlynn27 said:
4% of GDP on NATO? Or what?
Sounds like a decent idea - as long as none of it is spent in the USA and we redevelop our indigenous defence industry.
Sounds like a terrible idea. What would it be for? We have so many better things to spend our money on.
Is that NATO or defence? Can we spend it on pensions and helping unjured service personal etc?

jjlynn27

7,739 posts

69 months

Wednesday 11th July 2018
quotequote all
El stovey said:
midenginedcoupe said:
AnotherClarkey said:
jjlynn27 said:
4% of GDP on NATO? Or what?
Sounds like a decent idea - as long as none of it is spent in the USA and we redevelop our indigenous defence industry.
Sounds like a terrible idea. What would it be for? We have so many better things to spend our money on.
Is that NATO or defence? Can we spend it on pensions and helping unjured service personal etc?
Mea culpa.
4% on defence. Which is still insane, imo. Spend it on scanners and oncologists.


Tartan Pixie

1,736 posts

107 months

Wednesday 11th July 2018
quotequote all
Byker28i said:
This ones sneaking in today whilst trump is stiring the st at NATO. He's signed an Executive Order to end competitive selection process for Administrative Law Judges, making them political appointees who can be fired at will (and probably appointed).


Oh and add to that tomorrow the Senate is expected to vote to confirm Benczkowski as Asst AG. He would be in the line is succession should Rosenstein get fired The problem? He worked for Kremlin-linked Alfa Bank that the FBI was investigating as part of Russia probe
Got to hand it to Trump, judging by this thread at least he's good at distraction wink

I had a wander round the wiki but am still confused about what an administrative law judge actually does, it appears to be someone who has no ability to try criminal cases but does decide on matters related to how government bodies work, presumably like a less important version of the supreme court?

Once a country loses the independence of the judiciary it is skating on very thin ice.

I am still somewhat gobsmacked that congress is letting him do this although I guess they've not really had time to respond yet. There's got to be someone who's capable of drafting a bill that overrides this order or otherwise ensures separation between executive and judicial decision making?

Edit, doing some reading and this may not be as bad as my initial reaction suggested, but it's still not good. Perhaps too much time in Africa when I was younger gives me a distorted view but this stuff gives me the fear, I have never ever seen anything good come out of political interference with the judiciary.

Edited by Tartan Pixie on Wednesday 11th July 22:40

Tartan Pixie

1,736 posts

107 months

Wednesday 11th July 2018
quotequote all
Halb said:
Mr E said:
I think all volumes should be printed, and then performed as some form of avant guard play.

smile
laugh

brilliant


I wonder how the director would handle the one who was obsessed with masturbation
PistOn Trump The Play.


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