Is this the last tory government
Discussion
AJL308 said:
Rovinghawk said:
AJL308 said:
I don't have a huge amount to stash but if it looked even remotely likely that we were in line for a Labour government under Corbyn I'd seriously look at moving what little I had abroad - Cayman's, or similar. Anything left in UK would be taxed away to nothing in very short order.
Bear in mind that Labour have already stated that they have plans in place to prevent this; if you have to do it then do it very quickly, before they can pass laws to stop you doing what you want with your money.A holiday in Grand Cayman in the not too distant future may be an idea.
JagLover said:
As to what government can actually do without massive costs. For insecurity it could improve redundancy terms, increase the minimum wage ...
That's hardly going to endear them to small businesses and start-ups - the backbone of the economy.easytiger123 said:
The Tories ... need to start by embracing ethical capitalism (scrap zero hours contracts, close the tax gap by ensuring corporates are taxed properly on any revenues generated here, a fairer income tax structure...the list is pretty extensive),
There are no easy answers, but ducking the question isn't leadership.
As I have said, I think the middle class as we know it is going to disappear at a frightening pace and if they don't offer some sort of genuine hope to those dropping out of it, they are going to get destroyed at the next GE. That doesn't mean embracing Marxism. It's basic common sense.
What about people who like working on zero hours contracts ? Stuff 'em ?There are no easy answers, but ducking the question isn't leadership.
As I have said, I think the middle class as we know it is going to disappear at a frightening pace and if they don't offer some sort of genuine hope to those dropping out of it, they are going to get destroyed at the next GE. That doesn't mean embracing Marxism. It's basic common sense.
Corporate tax on revenue rather than profit ? Novel.
Fairer income tax structure ? Usually means "more tax for everyone else, not from me, of course; I should pay less".
You are right that there are no easy answers. Including yours.
And who are the alternatives to the Tories at the next GE ? Do you not think that Corbyn and McDonnell are merely thinly disguised Marxists ?
gothatway said:
easytiger123 said:
The Tories ... need to start by embracing ethical capitalism (scrap zero hours contracts, close the tax gap by ensuring corporates are taxed properly on any revenues generated here, a fairer income tax structure...the list is pretty extensive),
There are no easy answers, but ducking the question isn't leadership.
As I have said, I think the middle class as we know it is going to disappear at a frightening pace and if they don't offer some sort of genuine hope to those dropping out of it, they are going to get destroyed at the next GE. That doesn't mean embracing Marxism. It's basic common sense.
What about people who like working on zero hours contracts ? Stuff 'em ?There are no easy answers, but ducking the question isn't leadership.
As I have said, I think the middle class as we know it is going to disappear at a frightening pace and if they don't offer some sort of genuine hope to those dropping out of it, they are going to get destroyed at the next GE. That doesn't mean embracing Marxism. It's basic common sense.
Corporate tax on revenue rather than profit ? Novel.
Fairer income tax structure ? Usually means "more tax for everyone else, not from me, of course; I should pay less".
You are right that there are no easy answers. Including yours.
And who are the alternatives to the Tories at the next GE ? Do you not think that Corbyn and McDonnell are merely thinly disguised Marxists ?
As to your second question, I'd maybe read the Labour manifesto on their website. It's far more compelling (and not in a moon-on-a-stick fashion) than the Tory one. The Tories are dead because Labour are the only party bothering even attempting to get to grips with how we as a country are going to deal with a society that is becoming ever more winner-takes-all by the day.
easytiger123 said:
gothatway said:
easytiger123 said:
The Tories ... need to start by embracing ethical capitalism (scrap zero hours contracts, close the tax gap by ensuring corporates are taxed properly on any revenues generated here, a fairer income tax structure...the list is pretty extensive),
There are no easy answers, but ducking the question isn't leadership.
As I have said, I think the middle class as we know it is going to disappear at a frightening pace and if they don't offer some sort of genuine hope to those dropping out of it, they are going to get destroyed at the next GE. That doesn't mean embracing Marxism. It's basic common sense.
What about people who like working on zero hours contracts ? Stuff 'em ?There are no easy answers, but ducking the question isn't leadership.
As I have said, I think the middle class as we know it is going to disappear at a frightening pace and if they don't offer some sort of genuine hope to those dropping out of it, they are going to get destroyed at the next GE. That doesn't mean embracing Marxism. It's basic common sense.
Corporate tax on revenue rather than profit ? Novel.
Fairer income tax structure ? Usually means "more tax for everyone else, not from me, of course; I should pay less".
You are right that there are no easy answers. Including yours.
And who are the alternatives to the Tories at the next GE ? Do you not think that Corbyn and McDonnell are merely thinly disguised Marxists ?
As to your second question, I'd maybe read the Labour manifesto on their website. It's far more compelling (and not in a moon-on-a-stick fashion) than the Tory one. The Tories are dead because Labour are the only party bothering even attempting to get to grips with how we as a country are going to deal with a society that is becoming ever more winner-takes-all by the day.
Its very easy to promise the world when you don't actually have to deliver.
Economically it would be a cluster f
k. They want to tax more, yet bring down capitalism, all while on a massive spending spree. That's why they are already planning for a capital flight. Who in their right mind would invest in the UK?WCZ said:
powerstroke said:
Maybe but when we have the toxic combination of millions of tory voters saying they won't vote for them again and millions of people who want a labour admin labour will get into power by default...
I seriously think if there was a GE tomorrow there would be a labour majority ...
this. every year more and more people become able to vote, a massive percent of those will vote labour I seriously think if there was a GE tomorrow there would be a labour majority ...
don'tbesilly said:
Was there a required margin between the Leave/Remain vote in the EU referendum bill?
Did either the Remain/Leave campaign present mandates prior to the referendum?
A simple yes/no to both questions will suffice
To suggest there was no required margin must mean you have rocks in your head.Did either the Remain/Leave campaign present mandates prior to the referendum?
A simple yes/no to both questions will suffice
The closer the margin of victory, the smaller the mandate- regardless of whether leave or remain won.
Here’s why:
1. Brexit is required to be ratified by Parliament.
2. An exit deal needs to be done with the EU
3. The government wants to annoy as few voters as possible on either side because it would like to remain in power.
If leave had won 70/30, we wouldn’t be having this conversation - that tells you all you need to know about the mandate from the winning margin.
oyster said:
Here’s why:
1. Brexit is required to be ratified by Parliament.
Already happened1. Brexit is required to be ratified by Parliament.
oyster said:
2. An exit deal needs to be done with the EU
"So long and thanks for stealing our fish" remains an option, probably not the best, but at root no deal needs to be struck.oyster said:
3. The government wants to annoy as few voters as possible on either side because it would like to remain in power.
.
Tell me again how that one's working out..
98elise said:
What was your financial assessment of their spending plans? Do the figures stack up?
Its very easy to promise the world when you don't actually have to deliver.
Economically it would be a cluster fk. They want to tax more, yet bring down capitalism, all while on a massive spending spree. That's why they are already planning for a capital flight. Who in their right mind would invest in the UK?
More rhetoric. You just keep coming out with these assumptions. Where on earth do Labour say they want to bring down capitalism?! That's just nonsense. Read their manifesto. Its very easy to promise the world when you don't actually have to deliver.
Economically it would be a cluster f
k. They want to tax more, yet bring down capitalism, all while on a massive spending spree. That's why they are already planning for a capital flight. Who in their right mind would invest in the UK?The world is changing like never before. The middle class who traditionally have generally voted Tory, is inevitably going to shrink as technology wipes out jobs, from drivers to solicitors to surgeons to brokers. Not all of them but many, many of them and there just won't be the jobs created to replace them. Are these displaced people and those who fear displacement going to vote for a party who seems to care about them and about trying to create a fairer society, or one who doesn't? It's that simple. Labour whether we like it or not are at least attempting to occupy this space. The Tories are not. They are going to get cremated by the electorate.
easytiger123 said:
gothatway said:
easytiger123 said:
The Tories ... need to start by embracing ethical capitalism (scrap zero hours contracts, close the tax gap by ensuring corporates are taxed properly on any revenues generated here, a fairer income tax structure...the list is pretty extensive),
There are no easy answers, but ducking the question isn't leadership.
As I have said, I think the middle class as we know it is going to disappear at a frightening pace and if they don't offer some sort of genuine hope to those dropping out of it, they are going to get destroyed at the next GE. That doesn't mean embracing Marxism. It's basic common sense.
What about people who like working on zero hours contracts ? Stuff 'em ?There are no easy answers, but ducking the question isn't leadership.
As I have said, I think the middle class as we know it is going to disappear at a frightening pace and if they don't offer some sort of genuine hope to those dropping out of it, they are going to get destroyed at the next GE. That doesn't mean embracing Marxism. It's basic common sense.
Corporate tax on revenue rather than profit ? Novel.
Fairer income tax structure ? Usually means "more tax for everyone else, not from me, of course; I should pay less".
You are right that there are no easy answers. Including yours.
And who are the alternatives to the Tories at the next GE ? Do you not think that Corbyn and McDonnell are merely thinly disguised Marxists ?
oyster said:
don'tbesilly said:
Was there a required margin between the Leave/Remain vote in the EU referendum bill?
Did either the Remain/Leave campaign present mandates prior to the referendum?
A simple yes/no to both questions will suffice
To suggest there was no required margin must mean you have rocks in your head.Did either the Remain/Leave campaign present mandates prior to the referendum?
A simple yes/no to both questions will suffice
The closer the margin of victory, the smaller the mandate- regardless of whether leave or remain won.
Here’s why:
1. Brexit is required to be ratified by Parliament.
2. An exit deal needs to be done with the EU
3. The government wants to annoy as few voters as possible on either side because it would like to remain in power.
If leave had won 70/30, we wouldn’t be having this conversation - that tells you all you need to know about the mandate from the winning margin.
Can you point out in the EU referendum bill where it states a required margin be needed to declare a winning side?
The fact Leave won at all regardless of margin wouldn't have prevented the conversation.
For remainers it would have just presented a much higher percentage of old,thick,racist xenophobes not worthy of the vote they were presented with.
fblm said:
AJL308 said:
Rovinghawk said:
AJL308 said:
I don't have a huge amount to stash but if it looked even remotely likely that we were in line for a Labour government under Corbyn I'd seriously look at moving what little I had abroad - Cayman's, or similar. Anything left in UK would be taxed away to nothing in very short order.
Bear in mind that Labour have already stated that they have plans in place to prevent this; if you have to do it then do it very quickly, before they can pass laws to stop you doing what you want with your money.A holiday in Grand Cayman in the not too distant future may be an idea.
gothatway said:
JagLover said:
As to what government can actually do without massive costs. For insecurity it could improve redundancy terms, increase the minimum wage ...
That's hardly going to endear them to small businesses and start-ups - the backbone of the economy.It is the same argument in terms of the minimum wage. Most of those who will be badly affected by automation have very specialised skills. Just because you are reasonably well educated does not mean you will be able to find another well paid job in a different sector in your forties and fifties. If the minimum wage were £10 an hour you would at least have a hope you could survive if the worst happened.
Despite the "radical" nature of the Labour manifesto they did not tackle most of these issues. No commitments were made over redundancy except for a favoured group in pregnant women. No additional commitments were made on the living wage over and above Conservative plans.
easytiger123 said:
More rhetoric. You just keep coming out with these assumptions. Where on earth do Labour say they want to bring down capitalism?! That's just nonsense. Read their manifesto.
The world is changing like never before. The middle class who traditionally have generally voted Tory, is inevitably going to shrink as technology wipes out jobs, from drivers to solicitors to surgeons to brokers. Not all of them but many, many of them and there just won't be the jobs created to replace them. Are these displaced people and those who fear displacement going to vote for a party who seems to care about them and about trying to create a fairer society, or one who doesn't? It's that simple. Labour whether we like it or not are at least attempting to occupy this space. The Tories are not. They are going to get cremated by the electorate.
These middle class Tory voters who may become redundant through automation etc will become the entrepreneurs of tomorrow. There's very little chance of a far left Labour party being attractive to them.The world is changing like never before. The middle class who traditionally have generally voted Tory, is inevitably going to shrink as technology wipes out jobs, from drivers to solicitors to surgeons to brokers. Not all of them but many, many of them and there just won't be the jobs created to replace them. Are these displaced people and those who fear displacement going to vote for a party who seems to care about them and about trying to create a fairer society, or one who doesn't? It's that simple. Labour whether we like it or not are at least attempting to occupy this space. The Tories are not. They are going to get cremated by the electorate.
easytiger123 said:
98elise said:
What was your financial assessment of their spending plans? Do the figures stack up?
Its very easy to promise the world when you don't actually have to deliver.
Economically it would be a cluster fk. They want to tax more, yet bring down capitalism, all while on a massive spending spree. That's why they are already planning for a capital flight. Who in their right mind would invest in the UK?
More rhetoric. You just keep coming out with these assumptions. Where on earth do Labour say they want to bring down capitalism?! That's just nonsense. Read their manifesto. Its very easy to promise the world when you don't actually have to deliver.
Economically it would be a cluster f
k. They want to tax more, yet bring down capitalism, all while on a massive spending spree. That's why they are already planning for a capital flight. Who in their right mind would invest in the UK?The world is changing like never before. The middle class who traditionally have generally voted Tory, is inevitably going to shrink as technology wipes out jobs, from drivers to solicitors to surgeons to brokers. Not all of them but many, many of them and there just won't be the jobs created to replace them. Are these displaced people and those who fear displacement going to vote for a party who seems to care about them and about trying to create a fairer society, or one who doesn't? It's that simple. Labour whether we like it or not are at least attempting to occupy this space. The Tories are not. They are going to get cremated by the electorate.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-politics-44189922...
As for technology and automation, how will Labour, with its union paymasters, deal with this? Run on a manifesto of not allowed jobs to be lost by automation by not implementing the technology, or costing how we could pay people not to work because their jobs are obsolete?
easytiger123 said:
More rhetoric. You just keep coming out with these assumptions. Where on earth do Labour say they want to bring down capitalism?! That's just nonsense.
John McDonnell said it, in between his calls for violent revolution and trying to explain that issuing bonds isn't borrowing. But most of what he says is nonsense, so you're probably right.easytiger123 said:
98elise said:
What was your financial assessment of their spending plans? Do the figures stack up?
Its very easy to promise the world when you don't actually have to deliver.
Economically it would be a cluster fk. They want to tax more, yet bring down capitalism, all while on a massive spending spree. That's why they are already planning for a capital flight. Who in their right mind would invest in the UK?
More rhetoric. You just keep coming out with these assumptions. Where on earth do Labour say they want to bring down capitalism?! That's just nonsense. Read their manifesto. Its very easy to promise the world when you don't actually have to deliver.
Economically it would be a cluster f
k. They want to tax more, yet bring down capitalism, all while on a massive spending spree. That's why they are already planning for a capital flight. Who in their right mind would invest in the UK?The world is changing like never before. The middle class who traditionally have generally voted Tory, is inevitably going to shrink as technology wipes out jobs, from drivers to solicitors to surgeons to brokers. Not all of them but many, many of them and there just won't be the jobs created to replace them. Are these displaced people and those who fear displacement going to vote for a party who seems to care about them and about trying to create a fairer society, or one who doesn't? It's that simple. Labour whether we like it or not are at least attempting to occupy this space. The Tories are not. They are going to get cremated by the electorate.
CrutyRammers said:
John McDonnell said it, in between his calls for violent revolution and trying to explain that issuing bonds isn't borrowing. But most of what he says is nonsense, so you're probably right.
McDonnell is the worst thing about the Labour Party at the moment, worse than Corbyn but they seem to go together. What they have understood though is to keep quite while the conservatives are destroying themselves. I keep comparing this to the end of the Major government but it’s actually now much worse for the conservatives, and it’s all of the conservatives own making.
Cameron having a referendum to shut up euro sceptic back benchers and stop ukip.
Cameron running the remain campaign fuelled with success after the Scotland referendum. Leading to tiny mandate for huge constitutional change. Cameron resigning.
Conservative brexit MPs all vanishing after the win, resulting in May having to take over.
May’s disastrous election campaign.
May’s move for brexit in name only.
Conservative eurosceptic back benchers still fighting and plotting over Europe but not being willing to do anything except undermine their leader.
It’s not going to change any time soon either. The conservative brexit MPs have a tiny mandate for brexit, they’re too gutless to overthrow their leader and they don’t want to be holding the brexit reigns. All they can do is try to influence May from the sidelines and she’s told them to shut up or put up.
easytiger123 said:
You just keep coming out with these assumptions. Where on earth do Labour say they want to bring down capitalism?! That's just nonsense. Read their manifesto.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-politics-44189922/john-mcdonnell-says-overthrowing-capitalism-is-his-jobhttps://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/john-mcdonnell-...
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/joh...
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/05/20/la...
https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-labour-s...
There's plenty more where that came from.
Rovinghawk said:
easytiger123 said:
You just keep coming out with these assumptions. Where on earth do Labour say they want to bring down capitalism?! That's just nonsense. Read their manifesto.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-politics-44189922/john-mcdonnell-says-overthrowing-capitalism-is-his-jobhttps://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/john-mcdonnell-...
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/joh...
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/05/20/la...
https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-labour-s...
There's plenty more where that came from.
When he gets chance to do what he wants, so many of them will be taken by horrible surprise.
"How much!? Jesus, but, wait, that includes us!? Hang on, it says here that's per month, not per year!!! But, we're not rich, we voted for him. Why the f
k is he doing this to all of us, instead of just the rich!?"Will be heard in normal households all over Britain.
(Answer, John's view of who is rich is very different to most of modern Britain's idea of the same. Got a house? You're rich.)
Remember - if you want to keep some of your money, you're a selfish pig. If you want to keep some of someone else's money, you're building a fairer society.
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