Is this the last tory government

[Tuna]

May's big problem is she started off making some big policy speeches that set out her house - Brexit means Brexit, red lines and so on.

Then she railroaded Davis (who out of loyalty/stupidity said nothing) making him look completely ineffective.

Finally she pulled off the most ridiculous smoke and daggers 'reveal' of a proposal that made it plain she'd consulted none of her own cabinet and was forcing a policy on them that had been concocted by civil servants (or if you're a conspiracy theorist, Merkel). It completely discards her red lines, Brexit doesn't mean anything, and the proposal is astonishing in it's unintended consequences.

She's made liars out of the whole party - the Brexiteers are useless and the Remainers are dishonest.

It wouldn't actually have mattered what sort of Brexit she came up with if she'd gained the consensus of the cabinet and stuck to her own conditions.

There are lots of policies that you could find difficult to accept, but still vote for the party overall. It's very hard to do that if you completely distrust them.

[amgmcqueen]

BoRED S2upid said:

May will get us through brexit and retire and who would blame her. Replace her with borris who’s had a quiet couple of years in the interim but is a likeable guy and a bit edgy. Result they hold on as Corbyn will just about contest the next election and is a bit too much for the majority,

Judas May has no intention of getting us through Brexit! She has fked the British public over and treated us like mugs. The tories need a leadership contest asap or they will be decimated at the next GE.

[James_B]

I think that Inam like most people now when I say that no political party seems to want my vote. The conservatives have hugely ramped upmmy taxes and reduced any potential benefits and Labour are left shouting that they would do even more.

The only rational response is to shift a lot of assets to somewhere else, to buy a home with great security, and to accept the fact that the social contract looks less likely to deliver for people like me and my children and to work as hard as possible to still come out ahead.

[stevemiller]

This crosses a number of threads, I have not posted on this thread or the others before due to the polarisation and bitterness. I voted leave and would again, not for immigration or all the so called nasty stuff. I do not trust the EU and I see it as a failed mission that will come crashing down from a complete blind side punch. I have no idea when this will happen but happen it will. I grew up in Glasgow with Labour supporting parents to eventually find myself voting Tory over the last 10 or so years at local and national elections.

I know feel I would welcome a second referendum and hopefully vote for a resurrected UKIP. I know it would only be a wasted vote but haven't they all been, this was a stitch up don't you all think? Liars and cheats the lot of them. Democracy is dying and with it will come a Pandora's box of issues. The referendum came about due to weak and vision-less parties who reacted rather than led. The career politicians need putting to the sword "not physically I may add"

Change is coming for many reasons and these spineless t**ts have started something that we are all about to suffer for.

" I came, I saw, I remain a leaver!

Edited by stevemiller on Wednesday 11th July 23:16

[Tryke3]

stevemiller said:

This crosses a number of threads, I have not posted on this thread or the others before due to the polarisation and bitterness. I voted leave and would again, not for immigration or all the so called nasty stuff. I do not trust the EU and I see it as a failed mission that will come crashing down from a complete blind side punch. I have no idea when this will happen but happen it will. I grew up in Glasgow with Labour supporting parents to eventually find myself voting Tory over the last 10 or so years at local and national elections.

I know feel I would welcome a second referendum and hopefully vote for a resurrected UKIP. I know it would only be a wasted vote but haven't they all been, this was a stitch up don't you all think? Liars and cheats the lot of them. Democracy is dying and with it will come a Pandora's box of issues. The referendum came about due to weak and vision-less parties who reacted rather than led. The career politicians need putting to the sword "not physically I may add"

Change is coming for many reasons and these spineless t**ts have started something that we are all about to suffer for.

" I came, I saw, I remain a leaver!

Edited by stevemiller on Wednesday 11th July 23:16

Yeah sure

[bitchstewie]

Russian Troll Bot said:

If they ditch Corbyn and Momentum for someone more centre left, the Tories are screwed.

Pretty much how I see it.

However maligned he might be, if Tony Blair came back right now I suspect he'd walk it.

[Robertj21a]

bhstewie said:

Pretty much how I see it.

However maligned he might be, if Tony Blair came back right now I suspect he'd walk it.

Blimey, has the world ended ?. Has the sun got to you ?

We are talking about the same slimeball ?

[bitchstewie]

Robertj21a said:

Blimey, has the world ended ?. Has the sun got to you ?

We are talking about the same slimeball ?

Most people just aren't that interested in politics.

He won't do so but my point was simply that should he, there are plenty of people who could never bring themselves to vote for the current Corbyn team, but it would be very naive to think "that slimeball".

Or just someone credible, right now Corbyn is the thing holding Labour back which doesn't seem a good situation for democracy wherever you lean.

[eccles]

bhstewie said:

Robertj21a said:

Blimey, has the world ended ?. Has the sun got to you ?

We are talking about the same slimeball ?

Most people just aren't that interested in politics.

He won't do so but my point was simply that should he, there are plenty of people who could never bring themselves to vote for the current Corbyn team, but it would be very naive to think "that slimeball".

Or just someone credible, right now Corbyn is the thing holding Labour back which doesn't seem a good situation for democracy wherever you lean.

I think a lot of people would agree about Corbyn, it seems Labour have a short memory. They tried the hard left stuff back in the 80's and were in the wilderness for years, and now they're doing the same.
The Tories are a complete shambles and if there was anything like a vaguely competent opposition, they'd be out in a heartbeat.

[crofty1984]

I have a low opinion of Blair, because he's a , but he did exactly the right thing in trying to appeal to "Mondeo Man" - the aspiring working/middle classes.

I agree with whoever started the Politically Homeless thread. 10 years ago, I'd have said the two main parties were so desperate for the middle ground there was no difference between them, leading to voter apathy. Now they've gone to the other extreme, appealing only to either octogenarian back in my dayers or hairy bush tofu gobblers.

[amusingduck]

jonnyb said:

I’m struggling to understand what you expected to happen.
Brexit was alway going to be in name only, and given the referendum result rightly so.

Just curious, what do you think would have been the result of a 52:48 Remain victory?

EEA or something, presumably? Or is compromise only required when things don't go your way?

[jonnyb]

amusingduck said:

jonnyb said:

I’m struggling to understand what you expected to happen.
Brexit was alway going to be in name only, and given the referendum result rightly so.

Just curious, what do you think would have been the result of a 52:48 Remain victory?

EEA or something, presumably? Or is compromise only required when things don't go your way?

Leaving the EU and going into the EAA would not be remaining, that would be leaving.

If remain had won by a similar margin it would have been a vote for the status quo, no closer ties, may be even taking a step back from more contentious issues like the EU arrest warrant.
It certainly would not have been a mandate to join the euro or an endorsement of ever closer union. It would have been a statement of this far and no further.

To me, the current vote is a mandate to leave, but not go very far. May was pushing it too far when she said leave the SM and the customs union. That may be what the hard leavers wanted, but it wasn’t what the country asked for when it returned the vote it did.

A lot of people see the EU as all or nothing, to me there are various shades of grey in there too.

[FiF]

Tuna said:

May's big problem is she started off making some big policy speeches that set out her house - Brexit means Brexit, red lines and so on.

Then she railroaded Davis (who out of loyalty/stupidity said nothing) making him look completely ineffective.

Finally she pulled off the most ridiculous smoke and daggers 'reveal' of a proposal that made it plain she'd consulted none of her own cabinet and was forcing a policy on them that had been concocted by civil servants (or if you're a conspiracy theorist, Merkel). It completely discards her red lines, Brexit doesn't mean anything, and the proposal is astonishing in it's unintended consequences.

She's made liars out of the whole party - the Brexiteers are useless and the Remainers are dishonest.

It wouldn't actually have mattered what sort of Brexit she came up with if she'd gained the consensus of the cabinet and stuck to her own conditions.

There are lots of policies that you could find difficult to accept, but still vote for the party overall. It's very hard to do that if you completely distrust them.

Suspect the law of unintended consequences will / should / could / hopefully will(?) end up showing that the entire political class, apart from a few exceptions, are either dishonest or useless, only interested in the end result of peoples' votes i.e. the power, and no interest whatsoever in the views and promises made which resulted in those votes.

The whole shebang needs sorting but with what? A new party? How long would that take and can anyone face the unpleasantness that would result?

In short, a big dunno from me, now off to walk the dog avoiding the areas that have been on fire due to some thoughtless twerp.

[Tuna]

bhstewie said:

Pretty much how I see it.

However maligned he might be, if Tony Blair came back right now I suspect he'd walk it.

There are enough people with sufficiently long memories that I doubt that would happen. Blair is in the same camp as May - saying one thing, and doing another. Shameful. His elder statesman act sticks in the throat. Witness how well his Brexit interventions have gone down.

The other element here is economics. I doubt the man on the street would be able to tell you the difference between Hammond and Brown as Chancellors. Ever increasing taxes, snuck in in devious ways. A dislike of the small businessman or woman. The squeezed middle.

One of the reasons Corbyn is seen as 'genuine' is he's offering measurably different economic policies. OK, they're mad, but there's no attempt at keeping 'business as usual', which most people are thoroughly sick of.

[jonnyb]

Tuna said:

bhstewie said:

Pretty much how I see it.

However maligned he might be, if Tony Blair came back right now I suspect he'd walk it.

There are enough people with sufficiently long memories that I doubt that would happen. Blair is in the same camp as May - saying one thing, and doing another. Shameful. His elder statesman act sticks in the throat. Witness how well his Brexit interventions have gone down.

The other element here is economics. I doubt the man on the street would be able to tell you the difference between Hammond and Brown as Chancellors. Ever increasing taxes, snuck in in devious ways. A dislike of the small businessman or woman. The squeezed middle.

One of the reasons Corbyn is seen as 'genuine' is he's offering measurably different economic policies. OK, they're mad, but there's no attempt at keeping 'business as usual', which most people are thoroughly sick of.

I would disagree with that. I think if Blair or some one like him was in charge of the Labour Party the conservatives would be out of office for a generation.

Don’t forget Blair won 3 general elections, and retired from office undefeated and at a time of his choosing. Even Maggie didn’t manage that.

I think the time is right for David Milliband, the problem is getting control of the Labour Party.

[bitchstewie]

Tuna said:

There are enough people with sufficiently long memories that I doubt that would happen. Blair is in the same camp as May - saying one thing, and doing another. Shameful. His elder statesman act sticks in the throat. Witness how well his Brexit interventions have gone down.

The other element here is economics. I doubt the man on the street would be able to tell you the difference between Hammond and Brown as Chancellors. Ever increasing taxes, snuck in in devious ways. A dislike of the small businessman or woman. The squeezed middle.

One of the reasons Corbyn is seen as 'genuine' is he's offering measurably different economic policies. OK, they're mad, but there's no attempt at keeping 'business as usual', which most people are thoroughly sick of.

The average person on the street probably doesn't know who Hammond is.

This place isn't representative of politics in general and whatever your views on Blair he won three elections pretty comfortably.

I'm not making an argument for him but I've watched a couple of interviews with him, I think the most recent was with Bloomberg, he's got baggage but he's very persuasive.

If he came back tomorrow and I was in the Conservative government today I'd be stting my pants.

[4x4Tyke]

They've been in disarray since before the last election and it made no difference, because nationalism; it made no difference with Thatcher, because nationalism. Farage did the same, Trump is doing the same not, many others have and are. Seems like you can get away with anything by hiding behind 'the flag'.

Edited by 4x4Tyke on Thursday 12th July 09:35

[Fermit The Krog and Sexy Sarah]

Russian Troll Bot said:

As long as Labour occupy the hard left, the Tories will have the numbers to oppose them. If they ditch Corbyn and Momentum for someone more centre left, the Tories are screwed.

Pretty much this. At the moments politics is in a pretty bad place. There is no effective opposition to a very weak PM. Who would want the job, with the cluster-fk that is Brexit?!

May's been given the short straw, and I suspect that Labour are holding off ditching Corbyn until Brexit is over. Then they could wheel in a more credible leader (I'd say Chuka Umunna would be a good canditate) and they'd stand every chance of annihilating the Tories.

The Maybot shall probably be history by then mind.

Edited by Fermit The Krog and Sexy Sarah on Thursday 12th July 10:07

[Johnnytheboy]

Assume for a moment the Tory Party does magically vanish.

50% of the electorate seem to be broadly right-of-centre.

Who are they going to vote for?

[don'tbesilly]

jonnyb said:

amusingduck said:

jonnyb said:

I’m struggling to understand what you expected to happen.
Brexit was alway going to be in name only, and given the referendum result rightly so.

Just curious, what do you think would have been the result of a 52:48 Remain victory?

EEA or something, presumably? Or is compromise only required when things don't go your way?

Leaving the EU and going into the EAA would not be remaining, that would be leaving.

If remain had won by a similar margin it would have been a vote for the status quo, no closer ties, may be even taking a step back from more contentious issues like the EU arrest warrant.
It certainly would not have been a mandate to join the euro or an endorsement of ever closer union. It would have been a statement of this far and no further.

To me, the current vote is a mandate to leave, but not go very far. May was pushing it too far when she said leave the SM and the customs union. That may be what the hard leavers wanted, but it wasn’t what the country asked for when it returned the vote it did.

A lot of people see the EU as all or nothing, to me there are various shades of grey in there too.

It was what the majority of Leavers voted for, there were no 'hard' leavers prior to the referendum.
It is exactly what both campaigns Remain/ Leave told the country what leaving the EU meant, none could have been more vocal of what a vote to leave the EU meant then Cameron & Osborne.

It's amazing that more than two years since the referendum that people are still telling those that voted Leave that they didn't vote to leave the SM/CU, I can only assume those people were not aware of what both campaigns were stating prior to the vote.