Was Kipling racist?
Discussion
Einion Yrth said:
Digga said:
Einion Yrth said:
Halb said:
It's called Lancashire pudding, don't you steal our heritage!
Tasteless compared to a proper Stornoway black pudding.
king funny.Langweilig said:
Those students aren't that smart. They missed one of his greater works - Tommy Atkins. In relation to what our war veterans have to put up with, every word of this poem is still true to this day - especially the last verse.
I WENT into a public 'ouse to get a pint o' beer,
The publican 'e up an' sez, " We serve no red-coats here."
The girls be'ind the bar they laughed an' giggled fit to die,
I outs into the street again an' to myself sez I:
O it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' " Tommy, go away " ;
But it's " Thank you, Mister Atkins," when the band begins to play
The band begins to play, my boys, the band begins to play,
O it's " Thank you, Mister Atkins," when the band begins to play.
I went into a theatre as sober as could be,
They gave a drunk civilian room, but 'adn't none for me;
They sent me to the gallery or round the music-'alls,
But when it comes to fightin', Lord! they'll shove me in the stalls!
For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' " Tommy, wait outside ";
But it's " Special train for Atkins " when the trooper's on the tide
The troopship's on the tide, my boys, the troopship's on the tide,
O it's " Special train for Atkins " when the trooper's on the tide.
Yes, makin' mock o' uniforms that guard you while you sleep
Is cheaper than them uniforms, an' they're starvation cheap.
An' hustlin' drunken soldiers when they're goin' large a bit
Is five times better business than paradin' in full kit.
Then it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an` Tommy, 'ow's yer soul? "
But it's " Thin red line of 'eroes " when the drums begin to roll
The drums begin to roll, my boys, the drums begin to roll,
O it's " Thin red line of 'eroes, " when the drums begin to roll.
We aren't no thin red 'eroes, nor we aren't no blackguards too,
But single men in barricks, most remarkable like you;
An' if sometimes our conduck isn't all your fancy paints,
Why, single men in barricks don't grow into plaster saints;
While it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an` Tommy, fall be'ind,"
But it's " Please to walk in front, sir," when there's trouble in the wind
There's trouble in the wind, my boys, there's trouble in the wind,
O it's " Please to walk in front, sir," when there's trouble in the wind.
You talk o' better food for us, an' schools, an' fires, an' all:
We'll wait for extry rations if you treat us rational.
Don't mess about the cook-room slops, but prove it to our face
The Widow's Uniform is not the soldier-man's disgrace.
For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an` Chuck him out, the brute! "
But it's " Saviour of 'is country " when the guns begin to shoot;
An' it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' anything you please;
An 'Tommy ain't a bloomin' fool - you bet that Tommy sees!
Which should pretty much end the thread when it comes to Kipling. Bloke had more insight than the vast majority before, during and since his time.I WENT into a public 'ouse to get a pint o' beer,
The publican 'e up an' sez, " We serve no red-coats here."
The girls be'ind the bar they laughed an' giggled fit to die,
I outs into the street again an' to myself sez I:
O it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' " Tommy, go away " ;
But it's " Thank you, Mister Atkins," when the band begins to play
The band begins to play, my boys, the band begins to play,
O it's " Thank you, Mister Atkins," when the band begins to play.
I went into a theatre as sober as could be,
They gave a drunk civilian room, but 'adn't none for me;
They sent me to the gallery or round the music-'alls,
But when it comes to fightin', Lord! they'll shove me in the stalls!
For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' " Tommy, wait outside ";
But it's " Special train for Atkins " when the trooper's on the tide
The troopship's on the tide, my boys, the troopship's on the tide,
O it's " Special train for Atkins " when the trooper's on the tide.
Yes, makin' mock o' uniforms that guard you while you sleep
Is cheaper than them uniforms, an' they're starvation cheap.
An' hustlin' drunken soldiers when they're goin' large a bit
Is five times better business than paradin' in full kit.
Then it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an` Tommy, 'ow's yer soul? "
But it's " Thin red line of 'eroes " when the drums begin to roll
The drums begin to roll, my boys, the drums begin to roll,
O it's " Thin red line of 'eroes, " when the drums begin to roll.
We aren't no thin red 'eroes, nor we aren't no blackguards too,
But single men in barricks, most remarkable like you;
An' if sometimes our conduck isn't all your fancy paints,
Why, single men in barricks don't grow into plaster saints;
While it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an` Tommy, fall be'ind,"
But it's " Please to walk in front, sir," when there's trouble in the wind
There's trouble in the wind, my boys, there's trouble in the wind,
O it's " Please to walk in front, sir," when there's trouble in the wind.
You talk o' better food for us, an' schools, an' fires, an' all:
We'll wait for extry rations if you treat us rational.
Don't mess about the cook-room slops, but prove it to our face
The Widow's Uniform is not the soldier-man's disgrace.
For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an` Chuck him out, the brute! "
But it's " Saviour of 'is country " when the guns begin to shoot;
An' it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' anything you please;
An 'Tommy ain't a bloomin' fool - you bet that Tommy sees!
audidoody said:
Geoffrey Wellum died today.
He was 19 when he climbed into his Spitfire several times daily in 1940 probably not expecting to come back.
Same age as the self-obsessed ninnies at Manchester University.
What's that latest internet cliche?
Let that sink in.
He fought for their right to be self obsessed ninnies, it's just a shame they had to take that opportunity rather than be useful members of society.He was 19 when he climbed into his Spitfire several times daily in 1940 probably not expecting to come back.
Same age as the self-obsessed ninnies at Manchester University.
What's that latest internet cliche?
Let that sink in.
audidoody said:
Geoffrey Wellum died today.
He was 19 when he climbed into his Spitfire several times daily in 1940 probably not expecting to come back.
Same age as the self-obsessed ninnies at Manchester University.
What's that latest internet cliche?
Let that sink in.
Christ, in England some misty-eyed twit is always withering on about Spitfires, spirit of the Blitz and where did it all go wrong. No future, only a miserable past of war, exploitation and appropriation to venerate. He was 19 when he climbed into his Spitfire several times daily in 1940 probably not expecting to come back.
Same age as the self-obsessed ninnies at Manchester University.
What's that latest internet cliche?
Let that sink in.
An historic interview with Wellum was broadcast on the wireless earlier this week where he complained about the Germans spoiling the cricket. In a couple of short sentences he covered many important aspects of English life: Spitfires, cricket and fighting the Germans.
Kipling was no more racist than many people of his time.
Kipling was no more racist than many people of his time.
irocfan said:
Roofless Toothless said:
And, of course, Shakespeare is no longer welcome on my bookshelves after that Shylock play.
nah that's still fine in Labour, required reading in fact. I men it's a twofer: The evils of money being lent by the wealthy (read bankers)
The devious Jew
B210bandit said:
audidoody said:
Geoffrey Wellum died today.
He was 19 when he climbed into his Spitfire several times daily in 1940 probably not expecting to come back.
Same age as the self-obsessed ninnies at Manchester University.
What's that latest internet cliche?
Let that sink in.
Christ, in England some misty-eyed twit is always withering on about Spitfires, spirit of the Blitz and where did it all go wrong. No future, only a miserable past of war, exploitation and appropriation to venerate. He was 19 when he climbed into his Spitfire several times daily in 1940 probably not expecting to come back.
Same age as the self-obsessed ninnies at Manchester University.
What's that latest internet cliche?
Let that sink in.
Derek Smith said:
Wellum a misty-eyed twit, eh? Not sure I totally agree with that.
I have absolutely no idea about his life at all, bar that he had zero choice but to be conscripted when he was a teenager, three-quarters of a century ago - and acquitted himself well at that, not least by "not dying".Halb said:
It is one of my fave poems, KIpling was a right old racist, I can live with this. The students want to have someone they can look up to in their place, I can live with that, not much of a story.
Pretty much my thoughts. The reaction to this is just one tribe being upset by their pet enemy "liberals".The building is named after an anti-aparthied campaigner, so having a Kipling poem was a little thoughtless originally (and that's also all it likely was, someone who thought "that's a nice poem" and no more).
glazbagun said:
Pretty much my thoughts. The reaction to this is just one tribe being upset by their pet enemy "liberals".
The building is named after an anti-aparthied campaigner, so having a Kipling poem was a little thoughtless originally (and that's also all it likely was, someone who thought "that's a nice poem" and no more).
I watched kermode's yt vid on Artemis Hotel yesterday, and in it he explains before every clip is included it has to be vetted if it'll cause offence. The researcher who vetted one clip with 'hakuna matata' in had not heard of it, and didn't know if it was a rude and would cause offence to people. I was amused.The building is named after an anti-aparthied campaigner, so having a Kipling poem was a little thoughtless originally (and that's also all it likely was, someone who thought "that's a nice poem" and no more).
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