How do we think EU negotiations will go? (Vol 4)
Discussion
Mrr T said:
The first thing you need to understand team leave seem to believe the EU is a living thing which has its own views and plans. I always ask for pictures of this EU but no one has ever found one.
The fact is the EU is many different people and counties each with their own views.
What % of those people have the UK’s best interest at heart?The fact is the EU is many different people and counties each with their own views.
Mrr T said:
alfie2244 said:
PurpleMoonlight said:
Are you intimating that leavers fully understand the EU?
If I may.....its long term aims and ambitions?......Yes.The fact is the EU is many different people and counties each with their own views.
pgh said:
Great comment/post. It captures many of the diverse thoughts I've had over time into one piece.
It was, whilst the majority of what loafer wrote did resonate with some of my views, the below, and specifically that emboldened was for me the most important, and was what made me vote for Leave.IMO a vote to remain in the EU would be seen as a tacit approval by the EU of the UK of the longer term aims/ambitions of the EU.
To date, the EU have proved my reasoning (main reason), and far quicker than I had previously thought, and the construct will go on to further confirm my reasoning.
I wish them well on their journey.
If they and the rest of the EU27 want to continue down the path I see the construct following then so be it, I think the UK is far better out of such a construct, the UK didn't fit before, and it certainly won't fit in the future.
loafer123 said:
What is the future direction of the EU? Is it likely to become more responsive to the unique situation of the UK? Mr Cameron’s attempted renegotiation of the UK relationship with the EU resulted in a public humiliation for him and the country. This proved beyond doubt to anybody who paid attention that the powers within the EU had not the slightest understanding of the conditions in the UK nor the slightest willingness to consider any proposal to make EU law more acceptable to UK requirements. To a rational thinker, Cameron’s treatment showed that the EU held the UK in contempt, the British people and their elected leader in contempt and could not care one way or the other what we thought or indeed how we voted.
sidicks said:
Mrr T said:
The first thing you need to understand team leave seem to believe the EU is a living thing which has its own views and plans. I always ask for pictures of this EU but no one has ever found one.
The fact is the EU is many different people and counties each with their own views.
What % of those people have the UK’s best interest at heart?The fact is the EU is many different people and counties each with their own views.
So anything that is good for the EU must also be good for the majority of members.
The concept of having any member state's best interest at heart is utterly alien...instead it is the interests of the EU that is at the heart of policy and through this approach the members best interests are served when they align their own interests with those of the EU.
Of course this does produce situations like Greece, where a country have effectively been economically destroyed because it's interests at this time do not align with those of the EU.
Mrr T said:
alfie2244 said:
PurpleMoonlight said:
Are you intimating that leavers fully understand the EU?
If I may.....its long term aims and ambitions?......Yes.The fact is the EU is many different people and counties each with their own views.
ps Here the picture of the EU designed swing that you asked for:
Dr Jekyll said:
Mrr T said:
alfie2244 said:
PurpleMoonlight said:
Are you intimating that leavers fully understand the EU?
If I may.....its long term aims and ambitions?......Yes.The fact is the EU is many different people and counties each with their own views.
PurpleMoonlight said:
alfie2244 said:
Well unless they want a full on USoEU and all that will entail, army etc then perhaps not..... I find it hard to believe 48% of the UK voting population would vote for that (Those that bothered to vote of course).
A strange attitude.You assume that someone who may want a different future to you cannot understand what the future may hold.
cookie118 said:
Unfortunately the sneering, dismissive tone of that article is all too often displayed by brexiteers towards anyone or any concerns about brexit.
funny that. i thought it was a well written accurate description of what i read on here from some on a daily basis. this quote is most relevant to the most ardent remainers.“In that case, what I’d try to do is help the person become more flexible — in short, to learn how to live with the anxiety, tolerate the uncertainty, and work out how they can continue to engage with what truly matters to them in life, rather than getting caught up trying to change things they can’t change.”
andymadmak said:
sidicks said:
Mrr T said:
The first thing you need to understand team leave seem to believe the EU is a living thing which has its own views and plans. I always ask for pictures of this EU but no one has ever found one.
The fact is the EU is many different people and counties each with their own views.
What % of those people have the UK’s best interest at heart?The fact is the EU is many different people and counties each with their own views.
So anything that is good for the EU must also be good for the majority of members.
The concept of having any member state's best interest at heart is utterly alien...instead it is the interests of the EU that is at the heart of policy and through this approach the members best interests are served when they align their own interests with those of the EU.
Of course this does produce situations like Greece, where a country have effectively been economically destroyed because it's interests at this time do not align with those of the EU.
Once again you are referring to the EU as it had a life of its own. If it does can I please have a picture.
Once again your statement that the EU caused the problems in Greece is utterly ridiculous. It was the Greek government who decided to join the euro, most Greeks still support that decision. It was Greek government who decided to spend money it did not have to give free stuff to the electorate. It was the Greek electorate who voted for the governments who borrowed the money. The euro members of the EU have helped Greece start on the long path to recovery.
Mrr T said:
Once again you are referring to the EU as it had a life of its own. If it does can I please have a picture.
i can do better than that, here is a short film. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1CSbkgBbwloMrr T said:
I think most who voted remain did not think that. We all know the EU has good things and bad things about it.
Once again you are referring to the EU as it had a life of its own. If it does can I please have a picture.
Once again your statement that the EU caused the problems in Greece is utterly ridiculous. It was the Greek government who decided to join the euro, most Greeks still support that decision. It was Greek government who decided to spend money it did not have to give free stuff to the electorate. It was the Greek electorate who voted for the governments who borrowed the money. The euro members of the EU have helped Greece start on the long path to recovery.
The EU's due diligence on Greece joining the EURO was totally non existent. They are just as culpable as the Greek Govt.Once again you are referring to the EU as it had a life of its own. If it does can I please have a picture.
Once again your statement that the EU caused the problems in Greece is utterly ridiculous. It was the Greek government who decided to join the euro, most Greeks still support that decision. It was Greek government who decided to spend money it did not have to give free stuff to the electorate. It was the Greek electorate who voted for the governments who borrowed the money. The euro members of the EU have helped Greece start on the long path to recovery.
Mrr T said:
andymadmak said:
sidicks said:
Mrr T said:
The first thing you need to understand team leave seem to believe the EU is a living thing which has its own views and plans. I always ask for pictures of this EU but no one has ever found one.
The fact is the EU is many different people and counties each with their own views.
What % of those people have the UK’s best interest at heart?The fact is the EU is many different people and counties each with their own views.
So anything that is good for the EU must also be good for the majority of members.
The concept of having any member state's best interest at heart is utterly alien...instead it is the interests of the EU that is at the heart of policy and through this approach the members best interests are served when they align their own interests with those of the EU.
Of course this does produce situations like Greece, where a country have effectively been economically destroyed because it's interests at this time do not align with those of the EU.
Once again you are referring to the EU as it had a life of its own. If it does can I please have a picture.
Once again your statement that the EU caused the problems in Greece is utterly ridiculous. It was the Greek government who decided to join the euro, most Greeks still support that decision. It was Greek government who decided to spend money it did not have to give free stuff to the electorate. It was the Greek electorate who voted for the governments who borrowed the money. The euro members of the EU have helped Greece start on the long path to recovery.
Troubleatmill said:
Mrr T said:
I think most who voted remain did not think that. We all know the EU has good things and bad things about it.
Once again you are referring to the EU as it had a life of its own. If it does can I please have a picture.
Once again your statement that the EU caused the problems in Greece is utterly ridiculous. It was the Greek government who decided to join the euro, most Greeks still support that decision. It was Greek government who decided to spend money it did not have to give free stuff to the electorate. It was the Greek electorate who voted for the governments who borrowed the money. The euro members of the EU have helped Greece start on the long path to recovery.
The EU's due diligence on Greece joining the EURO was totally non existent. They are just as culpable as the Greek Govt.Once again you are referring to the EU as it had a life of its own. If it does can I please have a picture.
Once again your statement that the EU caused the problems in Greece is utterly ridiculous. It was the Greek government who decided to join the euro, most Greeks still support that decision. It was Greek government who decided to spend money it did not have to give free stuff to the electorate. It was the Greek electorate who voted for the governments who borrowed the money. The euro members of the EU have helped Greece start on the long path to recovery.
wc98 said:
Mrr T said:
Once again you are referring to the EU as it had a life of its own. If it does can I please have a picture.
i can do better than that, here is a short film. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1CSbkgBbwloMrr T said:
Once again your statement that the EU caused the problems in Greece is utterly ridiculous. It was the Greek government who decided to join the euro, most Greeks still support that decision. It was Greek government who decided to spend money it did not have to give free stuff to the electorate. It was the Greek electorate who voted for the governments who borrowed the money. The euro members of the EU have helped Greece start on the long path to recovery.
Other opinions are available. Like this one:verdict said:
Beyond blaming of the current government, Greece’s creditors also rolled out a series of other accusations about the supposed dishonesty of Greece’s politicians. Greece supposedly, for example, lied to enter the Eurozone in the first place, providing fake numbers to make its finances appear stronger than they were.
What that story fails to acknowledge is that everyone, very much including the German and French leaders of the European Union at the time, were in on the scheme. Everyone knew that Greece was being allowed into the EU for political reasons, and everyone was willing to avert their eyes. Using that episode now as a reason to punish the Greek people is eerily reminiscent of the famous line in “Casablanca,” where Captain Renault shouts, “I’m shocked, shocked to find that gambling is going on in here!”
Similarly, another claim is that generations of Greek governments have failed to put in place a modern system for collecting taxes. This, again, is true as far as it goes. But again, it is irrelevant to the current situation. Everyone knows that every country’s tax collections will be lower than the amount that would be collected if compliance with the tax laws were perfect. This is called the “tax gap.” In the United States, that gap has been estimated at about 10 percent of the total tax revenue that the federal government collects annually. For most other countries, it is much higher.
The point here, however, is that the countries and institutions that loaned money to Greece knew all of this. They knew that Greece’s tax gap is large, and that it has been for generations. It is perfectly valid, of course, to say that a country could try to collect more tax revenue, as a matter of reinforcing respect for the rule of law, or for other reasons. That, however, is not what is happening here.
Ultimately, current calls for “better tax collection efforts” in Greece are simply a different way to call for intensified austerity. Unless the Greek government can come up with a way quickly to collect large amounts of unpaid taxes from wealthy Greeks—because only wealthy citizens would be unlikely to reduce their spending on Greek goods and services, which would further harm Greece’s economy and increase its unemployment rate—calling on the country to increase taxes now (or, even worse, to cut spending further) is simply to try to force the Greeks to endure deeper austerity. That the excuse for doing so is given a moralistic gloss—“If only you had not tolerated such a large tax gap for all these years, you’d be fine now.”—does not change the underlying reality.
In short, even if one views the current and former governments of Greece as dishonest and uncooperative—charges that have some element of truth, but are being deliberately overblown—that is not currently relevant. Such claims are, instead, largely excuses for refusing to deal forthrightly with the problems at hand. They would, in fact, push the situation in precisely the wrong direction. If Greece is to stay in the Eurozone, it must receive debt reductions. And if it leaves the Eurozone, it will surely default on its own. Greece’s creditors are not going to be repaid in full, either way. The sooner they accept that, the better it will be for everyone, including the creditors themselves.
https://verdict.justia.com/2015/07/28/who-is-to-blame-for-the-greek-crisis-the-greeks-or-europes-leadersWhat that story fails to acknowledge is that everyone, very much including the German and French leaders of the European Union at the time, were in on the scheme. Everyone knew that Greece was being allowed into the EU for political reasons, and everyone was willing to avert their eyes. Using that episode now as a reason to punish the Greek people is eerily reminiscent of the famous line in “Casablanca,” where Captain Renault shouts, “I’m shocked, shocked to find that gambling is going on in here!”
Similarly, another claim is that generations of Greek governments have failed to put in place a modern system for collecting taxes. This, again, is true as far as it goes. But again, it is irrelevant to the current situation. Everyone knows that every country’s tax collections will be lower than the amount that would be collected if compliance with the tax laws were perfect. This is called the “tax gap.” In the United States, that gap has been estimated at about 10 percent of the total tax revenue that the federal government collects annually. For most other countries, it is much higher.
The point here, however, is that the countries and institutions that loaned money to Greece knew all of this. They knew that Greece’s tax gap is large, and that it has been for generations. It is perfectly valid, of course, to say that a country could try to collect more tax revenue, as a matter of reinforcing respect for the rule of law, or for other reasons. That, however, is not what is happening here.
Ultimately, current calls for “better tax collection efforts” in Greece are simply a different way to call for intensified austerity. Unless the Greek government can come up with a way quickly to collect large amounts of unpaid taxes from wealthy Greeks—because only wealthy citizens would be unlikely to reduce their spending on Greek goods and services, which would further harm Greece’s economy and increase its unemployment rate—calling on the country to increase taxes now (or, even worse, to cut spending further) is simply to try to force the Greeks to endure deeper austerity. That the excuse for doing so is given a moralistic gloss—“If only you had not tolerated such a large tax gap for all these years, you’d be fine now.”—does not change the underlying reality.
In short, even if one views the current and former governments of Greece as dishonest and uncooperative—charges that have some element of truth, but are being deliberately overblown—that is not currently relevant. Such claims are, instead, largely excuses for refusing to deal forthrightly with the problems at hand. They would, in fact, push the situation in precisely the wrong direction. If Greece is to stay in the Eurozone, it must receive debt reductions. And if it leaves the Eurozone, it will surely default on its own. Greece’s creditors are not going to be repaid in full, either way. The sooner they accept that, the better it will be for everyone, including the creditors themselves.
don'tbesilly said:
PurpleMoonlight said:
Are you intimating that leavers fully understand the EU?
PurpleMoonlight said:
alfie2244 said:
If I may.....its long term aims and ambitions?......Yes.
But remainers don't?Edited by Hayek on Tuesday 21st August 11:38
Mrr T said:
I think most who voted remain did not think that. We all know the EU has good things and bad things about it.
OK. So if most people recognise that the EU has bad things about it, why is it that those bad things persist? Surely, if the EU does not exist as an entity in its own right (as you assert) why is it so hard to change the bad things about it, even when people clearly recognise them? Mrr T said:
Once again you are referring to the EU as it had a life of its own. If it does can I please have a picture.
Ahh, ok, so if it cannot be photographed or painted it doesn't exist? Can you photograph or paint a political construct? Perhaps the treaties and agreements that make up the EU are the picture you are looking for?
I could get you a picture of those if you like?
Mrr T said:
Once again your statement that the EU caused the problems in Greece is utterly ridiculous.
It's great how you (and other Remainers), when confronted with the inconvenient truth about Greece immediately resort to this kind of response. Why not just accept that Greece should never have been allowed to join the Euro, but was allowed to do so for the benefit of EU expansionist politics? Mrr T said:
It was the Greek government who decided to join the euro, most Greeks still support that decision.
And it should not have been the decision of the Greek Government alone....remember there were qualification criteria, quite strict ones, that had to be matched in order to be allowed to join. Those criteria were so obviously ignored as for the whole process to be little better than a joke. Are you seriously asserting that the Greek Government (which was known to be thoroughly corrupt) actually hoodwinked the EU into letting it join the Euro?
As for what the Greek people want now, I think you need to spend time with Greek business people and ordinary folk there in order to get a slightly more nuanced picture. ( we know how you like pictures) Most Greeks recognise that they are trapped by the Euro. They are too poor to leave and they know it. Many long for the return of the Drachma, whilst recognising that it would be nigh on impossible.
Mrr T said:
It was Greek government who decided to spend money it did not have to give free stuff to the electorate. It was the Greek electorate who voted for the governments who borrowed the money. The euro members of the EU have helped Greece start on the long path to recovery.
Shock ! Corrupt Greek politicos do what corrupt Greek politicos have always done...... begs the question why they were allowed to join the Euro in the first place doesn't it? Also begs the question why the rest of the EU was so glad to lend them sooooooo much money - especially if (as you clearly assert) it was known that the Greeks were borrowing recklessly. Long path to recovery? Have you seen the unemployment rates? Have you been to Athens and seen the devastation of business there? An economy still 25% smaller than it was just a few years ago?
sidicks said:
What % of those people have the UK’s best interest at heart?
Given that Labour, SNP, Sinn Fein, UKIP, Tories all have very different visions of UK’s best interest, doesn’t that % vary on what your personal view of UKs best interest are? ie for a remainer the % of other EU people that have UK best interest at heart will be very different to a brexiter. And SNP/ SF will disagree that the UK should exist in the first place, and look to what they think is in best interest of Scotland/ Ireland Just to add - that SF have 7 MP vs UKIP 0...
Edited by wisbech on Tuesday 21st August 12:21
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