How do we think EU negotiations will go? (Vol 4)

[sidicks]

wisbech said:

Given that Labour, SNP, Sinn Fein, UKIP, Tories all have very different visions of UK’s best interest, doesn’t that % vary on what your personal view of UKs best interest are? ie for a remainer the % of other EU people that have UK best interest at heart will be very different to a brexiter. And SNP/ SF will disagree that the UK should exist in the first place, and look to what they think is in best interest of Scotland/ Ireland

Just to add - that SF have 7 MP vs UKIP 0...

Very much so. But what % of people in the EU (ex-U.K.) would put the UK’s interests above their own?

Edited by sidicks on Tuesday 21st August 12:25

[Mrr T]

wc98 said:

Mrr T said:

Once again you are referring to the EU as it had a life of its own. If it does can I please have a picture.

i can do better than that, here is a short film. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1CSbkgBbwlo

Junker is head of the commission his influence and power in the EU is very limited.

[Crackie]

Troubleatmill said:

Mrr T said:

I think most who voted remain did not think that. We all know the EU has good things and bad things about it.

Once again you are referring to the EU as it had a life of its own. If it does can I please have a picture.

Once again your statement that the EU caused the problems in Greece is utterly ridiculous. It was the Greek government who decided to join the euro, most Greeks still support that decision. It was Greek government who decided to spend money it did not have to give free stuff to the electorate. It was the Greek electorate who voted for the governments who borrowed the money. The euro members of the EU have helped Greece start on the long path to recovery.

The EU's due diligence on Greece joining the EURO was totally non existent. They are just as culpable as the Greek Govt.

"Its much more complicated than that" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GBVTDLtTLtE

Edited by Crackie on Tuesday 21st August 13:18

[wisbech]

sidicks said:

Very much so. But what % of people in the EU (ex-U.K.) would put the UK’s interests above their own?

Edited by sidicks on Tuesday 21st August 12:25

What % of people in the UK put their interests below the UK’s? We just rationalise that it is the same thing

[don'tbesilly]

Crackie said:

Troubleatmill said:

Mrr T said:

I think most who voted remain did not think that. We all know the EU has good things and bad things about it.

Once again you are referring to the EU as it had a life of its own. If it does can I please have a picture.

Once again your statement that the EU caused the problems in Greece is utterly ridiculous. It was the Greek government who decided to join the euro, most Greeks still support that decision. It was Greek government who decided to spend money it did not have to give free stuff to the electorate. It was the Greek electorate who voted for the governments who borrowed the money. The euro members of the EU have helped Greece start on the long path to recovery.

The EU's due diligence on Greece joining the EURO was totally non existent. They are just as culpable as the Greek Govt.

"Its much more complicated than that" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GBVTDLtTLtE

OT - at 05.53-4 the woman looks like a young Susan George.

[Mrr T]

amusingduck said:

Mrr T said:

Once again your statement that the EU caused the problems in Greece is utterly ridiculous. It was the Greek government who decided to join the euro, most Greeks still support that decision. It was Greek government who decided to spend money it did not have to give free stuff to the electorate. It was the Greek electorate who voted for the governments who borrowed the money. The euro members of the EU have helped Greece start on the long path to recovery.

Other opinions are available. Like this one:


https://verdict.justia.com/2015/07/28/who-is-to-bl...

Of cause other opinions are available. That’s why discussions are interesting.

My comment on the article you link to is that’s it’s easy to predict what will happen with hindsight!! With hindsight I would now be rich enough to own Greece 

I agree there was a political element in allowing Greece to join the euro when it did. My point was Greece joined because it wanted to it was not forced. There were also strong political reasons why it would have been difficult to say no to Greece.

There article suggests lenders knew they would not get paid. I do not think the writer quite understands how investments work.

I also do not suggest collecting more tax is a solution at the moment. However, doing so in the future is essential for Greece.

As for the future for Greece, some want debt forgiveness, but we all know that’s politically impossible. You can also argue debt forgiveness rewards the profligate.

As for leaving the euro that would make the current situation look like heaven.

[_Sorted_]

I see the Greek bailout(s) as akin to the Robin Hood giving to the poor scene in Time Bandits.

[amgmcqueen]

I see the usual suspects coincidentally went missing yesterday once the subject of Greece came up again...

[PurpleMoonlight]

amgmcqueen said:

I see the usual suspects coincidentally went missing yesterday once the subject of Greece came up again...

What has Greece got to do with brexit negotiations?

[don'tbesilly]

PurpleMoonlight said:

amgmcqueen said:

I see the usual suspects coincidentally went missing yesterday once the subject of Greece came up again...

What has Greece got to do with brexit negotiations?

You can't see how discussing other countries membership of the EU, and the benefits or not of being a member is relevant to the discussion?

You don't have to contribute if you don't think it's relevant.

[Mrr T]

andymadmak said:

......

Rather than have a massive post. I hope it’s OK rather than indent my replies I will reply by item.

1. I am not sure I understand your point. This is typical of the UK government as well. For example I do not think speed cameras do any good, and I think most agree, however my town is full of them.
2. I recognise the EU exists but not it exists in a single presence with one view and aim. The EU is made up of many parts often wanting to go in different directions. It’s also constrained by the treaties.
3. The answer is easy with hindsight not as easy at the time.
4. As above. I have not been to Greece since the crisis and I sure it’s not good. However, when a Greek hairdresser can retire at 55 with a state pension greater than the UK you can understand why I view the problem as being mainly of Greek making.
5. This is not just a Greek problem have you looked at the Labour parties policies.
6. The fact is the position is now stabilised and Greece can move forward. The pain will remain for some time. However, without the EU loans the pain would be far worst.

[PurpleMoonlight]

don'tbesilly said:

You can't see how discussing other countries membership of the EU, and the benefits or not of being a member is relevant to the discussion?

You don't have to contribute if you don't think it's relevant.

The EU haters blame the EU for Greece's downfall. The non EU haters blame Greece for Greece's downfall.

What's to be learned by that?

[Troubleatmill]

PurpleMoonlight said:

The EU haters blame the EU for Greece's downfall. The non EU haters blame Greece for Greece's downfall.

What's to be learned by that?

I blame:
1/ the EU for not doing any due diligence. Every financial advisor was telling their clients not to invest in Greece.
2/ The Greek Govt for joining the Euro knowing fine well they did not meet the criteria.


Can you honestly say the EU did their due diligence on this?

[crankedup]

Mrr T said:

wc98 said:

Mrr T said:

Once again you are referring to the EU as it had a life of its own. If it does can I please have a picture.

i can do better than that, here is a short film. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1CSbkgBbwlo

Junker is head of the commission his influence and power in the EU is very limited.

You miss the important point, the fa t that he is drunk far to often whilst on official duty and that is ‘overlooked’ by his employers tells us much about the care for the electorate.

[don'tbesilly]

PurpleMoonlight said:

don'tbesilly said:

You can't see how discussing other countries membership of the EU, and the benefits or not of being a member is relevant to the discussion?

You don't have to contribute if you don't think it's relevant.

The EU haters blame the EU for Greece's downfall. The non EU haters blame Greece for Greece's downfall.

What's to be learned by that?

With the exception of a few I don't see many EU haters, not wanting to be part of something doesn't make one a hater.

Why the concern over the EU anyway? You didn't care either way in regards the UK's membership of the EU, you said as much.

Edited by don'tbesilly on Tuesday 21st August 14:00

[PurpleMoonlight]

Troubleatmill said:

I blame:
1/ the EU for not doing any due diligence. Every financial advisor was telling their clients not to invest in Greece.
2/ The Greek Govt for joining the Euro knowing fine well they did not meet the criteria.


Can you honestly say the EU did their due diligence on this?

Did the UK undertake due diligence when it invested billions in RBS?

[crankedup]

PurpleMoonlight said:

Troubleatmill said:

I blame:
1/ the EU for not doing any due diligence. Every financial advisor was telling their clients not to invest in Greece.
2/ The Greek Govt for joining the Euro knowing fine well they did not meet the criteria.


Can you honestly say the EU did their due diligence on this?

Did the UK undertake due diligence when it invested billions in RBS?

Essential as part of propping up the financial system, without which would have resulted in a almost unlimited meltdown.

[wc98]

Crackie said:

"Its much more complicated than that" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GBVTDLtTLtE

Edited by Crackie on Tuesday 21st August 13:18

lol, you win !

[wc98]

Troubleatmill said:

Can you honestly say the EU did their due diligence on this?

i think goldman sachs did exactly as they were paid to do by the eu in compiling the report pre membership.

[YankeePorker]

Troubleatmill said:

I blame:
1/ the EU for not doing any due diligence. Every financial advisor was telling their clients not to invest in Greece.
2/ The Greek Govt for joining the Euro knowing fine well they did not meet the criteria.


Can you honestly say the EU did their due diligence on this?

3/ The French and German banks for lending stloads of wonga to the Greeks. I don’t doubt that the bankers cynically assumed that the EU would guarantee the payback in the interests of furthering the €, and they were right. All those bad debts now belong to EU taxpayers.