How do we think EU negotiations will go? (Vol 4)
Discussion
eharding said:
An interesting concept - but how would you envisage '(speaking) to the peoples of the countries that will bear the brunt of us leaving the EU'? - taking out advertisements in the various national newspapers, televsion and social media, making the point that 'what was hindering this is/was the EU management intransigence.'?
I presume he means the leaders of the individual countries, not the ‘peoples’.sidicks said:
eharding said:
An interesting concept - but how would you envisage '(speaking) to the peoples of the countries that will bear the brunt of us leaving the EU'? - taking out advertisements in the various national newspapers, televsion and social media, making the point that 'what was hindering this is/was the EU management intransigence.'?
I presume he means the leaders of the individual countries, not the ‘peoples’.I assume he's capable of replying for himself though.
Rich_W said:
tumble dryer said:
I’ll start this by admitting that I’m halfway through a gorgeous Chardonnay. (Yes, there is.)
I may have mentioned on this thread that I’d picked up a copy of Varoufakis’s “Adults in the Room” for a holiday read a few weeks ago; basically his viewpoint of how the Greek/Troika negotiations unfolded during (and before) his term as Finance Minister, up until he wasn’t.
He observed, amongst many things, that the EU, IMF et al adopted the very successful tactic of Divide and Conquer – and went on to show how we, as a conquering nation back in the day, utilised the same methods to achieve quite extraordinary ‘success’ in developing ‘Great Britain’.
As an aside, it’s a great read and not quite as myopic as you might think; if you’ve a few hours lazing away the stress on holiday, I can heartily recommend it – if nothing else for the insight into the inner workings and thinking of those that we now face in our negotiations.
We have to be prepared to walk away. It’s that simple. And we have to be prepared to accept the pain if push comes to shove.
However, and getting back to the Divide and Conquer point, I think we should shortly be speaking not only to the EU negotiating team(s) but also to the peoples of the countries that will bear the brunt of us leaving the EU, and explaining to them that our wish is to continue trading as before, and to continue our relationships with them as individual nations, just as we did before. Explaining to them that we are perfectly willing to accept our financial responsibilities (the divorce settlement) and that the barrier to this was not our respective relationships with each individual country (quoting specific individual examples) but in fact what was hindering this is/was the EU management intransigence.
We won’t make many friends at the EU, but then, when did we ever?
(If I get flamed, I’m blaming it on the vino!)
I think that was the point of her jaunt to see Macron. But like Merkel that's the wrong person since they both LOVE the EU more than their own countries. I may have mentioned on this thread that I’d picked up a copy of Varoufakis’s “Adults in the Room” for a holiday read a few weeks ago; basically his viewpoint of how the Greek/Troika negotiations unfolded during (and before) his term as Finance Minister, up until he wasn’t.
He observed, amongst many things, that the EU, IMF et al adopted the very successful tactic of Divide and Conquer – and went on to show how we, as a conquering nation back in the day, utilised the same methods to achieve quite extraordinary ‘success’ in developing ‘Great Britain’.
As an aside, it’s a great read and not quite as myopic as you might think; if you’ve a few hours lazing away the stress on holiday, I can heartily recommend it – if nothing else for the insight into the inner workings and thinking of those that we now face in our negotiations.
We have to be prepared to walk away. It’s that simple. And we have to be prepared to accept the pain if push comes to shove.
However, and getting back to the Divide and Conquer point, I think we should shortly be speaking not only to the EU negotiating team(s) but also to the peoples of the countries that will bear the brunt of us leaving the EU, and explaining to them that our wish is to continue trading as before, and to continue our relationships with them as individual nations, just as we did before. Explaining to them that we are perfectly willing to accept our financial responsibilities (the divorce settlement) and that the barrier to this was not our respective relationships with each individual country (quoting specific individual examples) but in fact what was hindering this is/was the EU management intransigence.
We won’t make many friends at the EU, but then, when did we ever?
(If I get flamed, I’m blaming it on the vino!)
But I agree that talking to the other nations, unofficially and off the record, (I daresay even un publicised!) would be a good idea. Especially if those nations have historically been goof friends with us. Netherlands. Scandinavian countries etc
Explain exactly why they have to bear this cost - it's not as if we don't want to continue dealing with them, it's that their EU won't allow it.
In essence have THEM exert pressure.
I think we focus too much on our position, but forget that if this goes pear-shaped there are a whole lot of people/ countries/companies, that unless told otherwise, will seek to blame us - when really the issue is that we're quite happy to continue with a mutually acceptable deal - wherever, and however, that may apply.
The stumbling block is really not us, it's the shambles of the EU management and their dogmatic red lines.
What have we got to lose?
tumble dryer said:
If we're staring defeat in a negotiating scenario, I wouldn't advocate keeping things secret. Tell the people exactly what we have to offer. The people of each country that have something to lose, the companies and corporations that will suffer their bottom lines'.
Explain exactly why they have to bear this cost - it's not as if we don't want to continue dealing with them, it's that their EU won't allow it.
In essence have THEM exert pressure.
I think we focus too much on our position, but forget that if this goes pear-shaped there are a whole lot of people/ countries/companies, that unless told otherwise, will seek to blame us - when really the issue is that we're quite happy to continue with a mutually acceptable deal - wherever, and however, that may apply.
The stumbling block is really not us, it's the shambles of the EU management and their dogmatic red lines.
What have we got to lose?
This was my expected starting position.Explain exactly why they have to bear this cost - it's not as if we don't want to continue dealing with them, it's that their EU won't allow it.
In essence have THEM exert pressure.
I think we focus too much on our position, but forget that if this goes pear-shaped there are a whole lot of people/ countries/companies, that unless told otherwise, will seek to blame us - when really the issue is that we're quite happy to continue with a mutually acceptable deal - wherever, and however, that may apply.
The stumbling block is really not us, it's the shambles of the EU management and their dogmatic red lines.
What have we got to lose?
Let me explain it so everyone can understand.
1/ We leave the EU. It was what the referendum was about.
2/ We leave the EU and everything attached to the EU - ec ECJ ( which can rule on EU matters )
3/ We leave the EU. Not join a common rule book ( eg THE EU RULE BOOK ).
4/ We leave the EU. ( I might have mentioned that )
eharding said:
sidicks said:
eharding said:
An interesting concept - but how would you envisage '(speaking) to the peoples of the countries that will bear the brunt of us leaving the EU'? - taking out advertisements in the various national newspapers, televsion and social media, making the point that 'what was hindering this is/was the EU management intransigence.'?
I presume he means the leaders of the individual countries, not the ‘peoples’.I assume he's capable of replying for himself though.
The families, companies, corporations. All that will be affected by our decision to leave. I believe that they should know our position and our willingness to continue trading, and that our barrier to this is not us, it's their overlords.
I mean/ meant this as a strategy of divide and conquer, and in case anyone's in any doubt, I'm a confirmed leaver. (Which means I'm on your side!
)
tumble dryer said:
eharding said:
sidicks said:
eharding said:
An interesting concept - but how would you envisage '(speaking) to the peoples of the countries that will bear the brunt of us leaving the EU'? - taking out advertisements in the various national newspapers, televsion and social media, making the point that 'what was hindering this is/was the EU management intransigence.'?
I presume he means the leaders of the individual countries, not the ‘peoples’.I assume he's capable of replying for himself though.
The families, companies, corporations. All that will be affected by our decision to leave. I believe that they should know our position and our willingness to continue trading, and that our barrier to this is not us, it's their overlords.
I mean/ meant this as a strategy of divide and conquer, and in case anyone's in any doubt, I'm a confirmed leaver. (Which means I'm on your side!
)
To return to the original point though - if you think the UK should address the people of the EU directly, by what mechanism? - and your reaction to the EU doing likewise to the people of the UK?
sidicks said:
eharding said:
Well, I'm glad we've got that sorted out, and hopefully we're not conducting this conversation via Sidicks - always better to converse directly with the organ-grinder than a self-interposed dancing anthropoid.
You seem not to understand that this is a forum, not a direct conversation between two people. As I’m entitled to do I gave my opinion on what the OP had posted in perfectly reasonable tone. As it was, my interpretation was incorrect,Not sure why you need to be a t
t about it, but that’s your choice.Thanks for your input though.
eharding said:
It is indeed a forum, but quite why you appear to take it upon yourself to answer questions specifically directed at another forumite, and do a piss-poor job of doing so, is another matter.
Thanks for your input though.
I deleted my earlier post (that you quoted) as I thought I might have mis-interpreted your post and you were in fact having a light-hearted joke. Now I realise my initial interpretation was correct and you were being a tThanks for your input though.
t after all. Never mind,eharding said:
tumble dryer said:
eharding said:
sidicks said:
eharding said:
An interesting concept - but how would you envisage '(speaking) to the peoples of the countries that will bear the brunt of us leaving the EU'? - taking out advertisements in the various national newspapers, televsion and social media, making the point that 'what was hindering this is/was the EU management intransigence.'?
I presume he means the leaders of the individual countries, not the ‘peoples’.I assume he's capable of replying for himself though.
The families, companies, corporations. All that will be affected by our decision to leave. I believe that they should know our position and our willingness to continue trading, and that our barrier to this is not us, it's their overlords.
I mean/ meant this as a strategy of divide and conquer, and in case anyone's in any doubt, I'm a confirmed leaver. (Which means I'm on your side!
)To return to the original point though - if you think the UK should address the people of the EU directly, by what mechanism? - and your reaction to the EU doing likewise to the people of the UK?
It might not have appeared to come directly from the EU, but it didn't/doesn't need to, the population gets enough of it from those within the UK.
The Brexit bundles coming out tomorrow, will just add fuel to the fire, and the fact that presently the UK and the EU can not come to a pragmatic solution to the UK's wish to leave the EU, will be spun in such a way that the fault for the difficulties will be that of the UK's Govt, and the UK's Govt alone.
sidicks said:
eharding said:
It is indeed a forum, but quite why you appear to take it upon yourself to answer questions specifically directed at another forumite, and do a piss-poor job of doing so, is another matter.
Thanks for your input though.
I deleted my earlier post (that you quoted) as I thought I might have mis-interpreted your post and you were in fact having a light-hearted joke. Now I realise my initial interpretation was correct and you were being a tThanks for your input though.
t after all. Never mind,Your fit of pique, your attempt to delete that fit of pique, and your double-piqueburger with cheese when you realise you can't even manage to delete the original pique-fit is amusing, but irrelevant.
eharding said:
tumble dryer said:
eharding said:
sidicks said:
eharding said:
An interesting concept - but how would you envisage '(speaking) to the peoples of the countries that will bear the brunt of us leaving the EU'? - taking out advertisements in the various national newspapers, televsion and social media, making the point that 'what was hindering this is/was the EU management intransigence.'?
I presume he means the leaders of the individual countries, not the ‘peoples’.I assume he's capable of replying for himself though.
The families, companies, corporations. All that will be affected by our decision to leave. I believe that they should know our position and our willingness to continue trading, and that our barrier to this is not us, it's their overlords.
I mean/ meant this as a strategy of divide and conquer, and in case anyone's in any doubt, I'm a confirmed leaver. (Which means I'm on your side!
)To return to the original point though - if you think the UK should address the people of the EU directly, by what mechanism? - and your reaction to the EU doing likewise to the people of the UK?
How's about TM making a televised statement to the people of Europe?
Like it won't get coverage on every station across the world??
C'mon, this is not difficult to do. She simply makes a point of addressing 'Our friends in Europe'.
I'm thinking 'my' strategy may have been lost in the usual PH malestrom.
Stand up facing cameras and outline our position. We want to continue trading with the least interruption possible. We dont want tarriffs, we don't want grief, we just want what we think you want... (Could you guys find a way to make this happen?)
I sometimes think that amongst all the rhetorical and alarmist bullshot, we forget that there's actual people and families/ businesses/companies/corporations that all want the same thing being directed by a political version of the Emperor's new clothes.
Feck em. They should know their ACTUAL place.
eharding said:
Look, I'm interested in Tumble Dryer's proposition.
Your fit of pique, your attempt to delete that fit of pique, and your double-piqueburger with cheese when you realise you can't even manage to delete the original pique-fit is amusing, but irrelevant.
As above, no ‘pique’ involved - as I said before, I decided to give you the benefit of the doubt and was clearly wrong to do so.Your fit of pique, your attempt to delete that fit of pique, and your double-piqueburger with cheese when you realise you can't even manage to delete the original pique-fit is amusing, but irrelevant.
Feel free to continue being a bit of a t
t or move on. Hopefully the latter.tumble dryer said:
Well, not wishing to throw fuel on anyone's individual spats...
How's about TM making a televised statement to the people of Europe?
Like it won't get coverage on every station across the world??
C'mon, this is not difficult to do. She simply makes a point of addressing 'Our friends in Europe'.
I'm thinking 'my' strategy may have been lost in the usual PH malestrom.
Stand up facing cameras and outline our position. We want to continue trading with the least interruption possible. We dont want tarriffs, we don't want grief, we just want what we think you want... (Could you guys find a way to make this happen?)
I sometimes think that amongst all the rhetorical and alarmist bullshot, we forget that there's actual people and families/ businesses/companies/corporations that all want the same thing being directed by a political version of the Emperor's new clothes.
Feck em. They should know their ACTUAL place.
What can those ‘peoples’ actually / realistically do in the time available?How's about TM making a televised statement to the people of Europe?
Like it won't get coverage on every station across the world??
C'mon, this is not difficult to do. She simply makes a point of addressing 'Our friends in Europe'.
I'm thinking 'my' strategy may have been lost in the usual PH malestrom.
Stand up facing cameras and outline our position. We want to continue trading with the least interruption possible. We dont want tarriffs, we don't want grief, we just want what we think you want... (Could you guys find a way to make this happen?)
I sometimes think that amongst all the rhetorical and alarmist bullshot, we forget that there's actual people and families/ businesses/companies/corporations that all want the same thing being directed by a political version of the Emperor's new clothes.
Feck em. They should know their ACTUAL place.
tumble dryer said:
How's about TM making a televised statement to the people of Europe?
Like it won't get coverage on every station across the world??
C'mon, this is not difficult to do. She simply makes a point of addressing 'Our friends in Europe'.
...and that's the point. Quid pro quo, would you be happy to see an EU proponent - probably not one of the commission, but one or more EU heads of state - making a similar televised statement to the people of the UK?Like it won't get coverage on every station across the world??
C'mon, this is not difficult to do. She simply makes a point of addressing 'Our friends in Europe'.
sidicks said:
eharding said:
Look, I'm interested in Tumble Dryer's proposition.
Your fit of pique, your attempt to delete that fit of pique, and your double-piqueburger with cheese when you realise you can't even manage to delete the original pique-fit is amusing, but irrelevant.
As above, no ‘pique’ involved - as I said before, I decided to give you the benefit of the doubt and was clearly wrong to do so.Your fit of pique, your attempt to delete that fit of pique, and your double-piqueburger with cheese when you realise you can't even manage to delete the original pique-fit is amusing, but irrelevant.
Feel free to continue being a bit of a t
t or move on. Hopefully the latter.
eharding said:
For someone who claims to be pique-free, that fact that you seem unable to post without resorting to repetitive censurable personal insults just goes to prove you are demonstrably piqued up to the gills, and also profoundly lack any imagination or creativity when it comes to composing personal insults
Still wrong. Still tttish behaviour from you. No need to use different insults when the one used before is so apt.Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff