How do we think EU negotiations will go? (Vol 4)
Discussion
Helicopter123 said:
Troubleatmill said:
Sheets Tabuer said:
Troubleatmill said:
it is a question on honour, principle etc.
You know they are MPs?Adolf Hitler murdered 6m Jews.
To suggest that these are in anyway comparable is sickening. Not even the most ardent of brexit supporter would support your comments.
I would suggest that you remove your post.
Edited by andy.mod on Sunday 23 September 09:44
Jimboka said:
Troubleatmill said:
Sheets Tabuer said:
Vanden Saab said:
Sheets Tabuer said:
have Sinn fein decided to take up their seats then? 
Anna Soubry
Nicky Morgan
Dr Sarah Wollaston
Jonathan Djanogly
Stephen Hammond
Heidi Allen
Jeremy Lefroy
Robert Neill
Brexit is not a small commitment in the manifesto. It is quite simply the biggest commitment in the manifesto
And the people above stand under the Conservative flag to support the delivery of that manifesto.
And draw a large salary, and expenses, and a gold plated pension.
It is almost as if they were spineless to stand as independents.
There are times that MP's do not agree with every single element of their manifesto that they are being paid to stand behind.
But Brexit is the deliverable of the Tory manifesto.
This is cowardly treachery.
If you do not agree with the flagship policy - do not stand under that banner and get paid for delivering it.
Brexit is failing, the brexit nutters have failed to deliver. Zilch from those oxygen thieves. Happy days
mx5nut said:
Leave Means Leave rally.
Demographics as expected - looks to be a crowd that have spent the best years of their working lives enjoying the benefits of EU membership and are now lining up to have people make them angry about winning the referendum.
Yes, pretty galling that those of us young enough to be living the majority of our lives in a post-Brexit Britain apparently wanted to remain in the EU. Apart from any other factors, the potential result of another referendum would be swinging towards remain purely through natural wastage as people die offDemographics as expected - looks to be a crowd that have spent the best years of their working lives enjoying the benefits of EU membership and are now lining up to have people make them angry about winning the referendum.
Helicopter123 said:
Troubleatmill said:
Sheets Tabuer said:
Troubleatmill said:
it is a question on honour, principle etc.
You know they are MPs?Adolf Hitler murdered 6m Jews.
To suggest that these are in anyway comparable is sickening. Not even the most ardent of brexit supporter would support your comments.
I would suggest that you remove your post.
The comparison with Quisling, is a bit over the top, but has a bit more going for it.
The EU is obviously not Nazi Germany and we are not about to be physically occupied. But the EU has shown (to put it at its mildest) that it is not well disposed towards the UK and is intent on inflicting maximum pain on us as we leave.
There surely comes a point when undermining the country's democratic process and giving succour to the country's opponents, especially during a period of difficult negotiation, moves from legitimate dissent into something darker.
It is well documented that, however misplaced the belief was, Quisling did genuinely believe that he was acting in Norway's best interests by conspiring with the Germans, in the process undermining his own country's government/democracy, and most modern historians also believe that there is strong evidence that he was clinically insane.
Neither factor saved him from the firing squad nor the judgement of history.
And, no, I'm not suggesting or implying that she should be strung up. But I do think that she, and others of her ilk, need a long hard look in the mirror.
Edited by Scrump on Sunday 23 September 10:41
mx5nut said:
Leave Means Leave rally.
Demographics as expected - looks to be a crowd that have spent the best years of their working lives enjoying the benefits of EU membership and are now lining up to have people make them angry about winning the referendum.
Alternative viewpoint is that their position comes from a lifetime of wanting out.Demographics as expected - looks to be a crowd that have spent the best years of their working lives enjoying the benefits of EU membership and are now lining up to have people make them angry about winning the referendum.
psi310398 said:
But the EU has shown (to put it at its mildest) that it is not well disposed towards the UK and is intent on inflicting maximum pain on us as we leave.
Surely that was obvious from the beginning and should have been factored into how you chose to vote in the referendum? T0MMY said:
mx5nut said:
Leave Means Leave rally.
Demographics as expected - looks to be a crowd that have spent the best years of their working lives enjoying the benefits of EU membership and are now lining up to have people make them angry about winning the referendum.
Yes, pretty galling that those of us young enough to be living the majority of our lives in a post-Brexit Britain apparently wanted to remain in the EU. Apart from any other factors, the potential result of another referendum would be swinging towards remain purely through natural wastage as people die offDemographics as expected - looks to be a crowd that have spent the best years of their working lives enjoying the benefits of EU membership and are now lining up to have people make them angry about winning the referendum.
I believe that as a minimum the Leave numbers will remain constant and once shown that the sky didn't fall, planes didn't fall out of the sky and see project fear for what it was, Leave numbers will increase.
You also assume (wrongly in my opinion) that the EU will still be around in a few generations or, given it's path towards ever closer union and it's own army, that the EU will be seen in the same light as you see it today.
T0MMY said:
Kenny Powers said:
Alternative viewpoint is that their position comes from a lifetime of wanting out.
If you were 75 years old and your children and grandchildren all wanted to stay in, would you vote out? HTH
[quote
Leave Means Leave rally.
|https://thumbsnap.com/BO3i4qDJ[/url]
Demographics as expected - looks to be a crowd that have spent the best years of their working lives enjoying the benefits of EU membership and are now lining up to have people make them angry about winning the referendum.
[/quote]
Could be of course, a lot of those who were taken into the CM without their consent (Heath), were then lied to about the true nature of the CM 'project' (Ever Closer Union) and so, believing that the Establishment had their best interests at heart, voted to Remain in 1975........
Now they have seen the error of their ways and want out....
Interesting isn't it how there is this perceived 'age' split in voting and how it will all go the way of Remain as the population ages.
The Remainiac obsession that as the Leave voters die off and 16 year olds turn 18 the tide of the referendum will turn and we will all vote REMAIN.......
And that generation that has aged since 2016 wont turn to Leave.
And those who voted Remain in 2016 fearing this:
and now realise they were being lied to
And all those who now see the EU for being what it is (given the rhetoric from Barnier/Tusk) wont say screw you......
And above all, those who want an end to the debate knowing that a Remain vote would cause exactly the same divisions that have happened since 2016. (Brenda from Bristol)
And that the electorate now realise that we can't just 'not leave' the EU would force us to make concessions (financial / Schengen etc)
If you are of a Remain disposition I would be wary of trying to delay/sabotage Brexit. Wary because I think the Leave side have been very patient given that 'our' democratic mandate still hasn't been enacted.
It's like Newtons Third Law (for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction) And that there might well be a firming of views on the LEAVE side. And a result of a bitter divorce the EU wouldn't be willing, in future, to hold a door open for the UK to rejoin.
If that happens then, I'm afraid, the REMAINIACS will only have themselves to blame.
I speak only for myself but I had hoped that the UK's leaving would be amicable.
Now I say, just go. Don't pay any divorce bill. Let there be a hard border with Ireland (Ireland doesn't want it/we don't want it so the imposition of it would only indicate to the Irish that they (Ireland) are mere pawns in the greater European project)
The Labour party, seeing how a second referendum policy failed for the LDs in 2017, would do well to remember the actual votes for Brexit by constituency. https://fullfact.org/europe/did-majority-conservat...
They can't p
s off the majority of the UK electorate (by constituency) If if they don't win elections then the Conservatives will....
[url]
Leave Means Leave rally.
|https://thumbsnap.com/BO3i4qDJ[/url]Demographics as expected - looks to be a crowd that have spent the best years of their working lives enjoying the benefits of EU membership and are now lining up to have people make them angry about winning the referendum.
[/quote]
Could be of course, a lot of those who were taken into the CM without their consent (Heath), were then lied to about the true nature of the CM 'project' (Ever Closer Union) and so, believing that the Establishment had their best interests at heart, voted to Remain in 1975........
Now they have seen the error of their ways and want out....
Interesting isn't it how there is this perceived 'age' split in voting and how it will all go the way of Remain as the population ages.
The Remainiac obsession that as the Leave voters die off and 16 year olds turn 18 the tide of the referendum will turn and we will all vote REMAIN.......
And that generation that has aged since 2016 wont turn to Leave.
And those who voted Remain in 2016 fearing this:
and now realise they were being lied to
And all those who now see the EU for being what it is (given the rhetoric from Barnier/Tusk) wont say screw you......
And above all, those who want an end to the debate knowing that a Remain vote would cause exactly the same divisions that have happened since 2016. (Brenda from Bristol)
And that the electorate now realise that we can't just 'not leave' the EU would force us to make concessions (financial / Schengen etc)
If you are of a Remain disposition I would be wary of trying to delay/sabotage Brexit. Wary because I think the Leave side have been very patient given that 'our' democratic mandate still hasn't been enacted.
It's like Newtons Third Law (for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction) And that there might well be a firming of views on the LEAVE side. And a result of a bitter divorce the EU wouldn't be willing, in future, to hold a door open for the UK to rejoin.
If that happens then, I'm afraid, the REMAINIACS will only have themselves to blame.
I speak only for myself but I had hoped that the UK's leaving would be amicable.
Now I say, just go. Don't pay any divorce bill. Let there be a hard border with Ireland (Ireland doesn't want it/we don't want it so the imposition of it would only indicate to the Irish that they (Ireland) are mere pawns in the greater European project)
The Labour party, seeing how a second referendum policy failed for the LDs in 2017, would do well to remember the actual votes for Brexit by constituency. https://fullfact.org/europe/did-majority-conservat...
They can't p
s off the majority of the UK electorate (by constituency) If if they don't win elections then the Conservatives will....[url]Edited by alfaspecial on Sunday 23 September 10:11
T0MMY said:
mx5nut said:
Leave Means Leave rally.
Demographics as expected - looks to be a crowd that have spent the best years of their working lives enjoying the benefits of EU membership and are now lining up to have people make them angry about winning the referendum.
Yes, pretty galling that those of us young enough to be living the majority of our lives in a post-Brexit Britain apparently wanted to remain in the EU. Apart from any other factors, the potential result of another referendum would be swinging towards remain purely through natural wastage as people die offDemographics as expected - looks to be a crowd that have spent the best years of their working lives enjoying the benefits of EU membership and are now lining up to have people make them angry about winning the referendum.
Jazzy Jag said:
Sorry to piss on your chips, but as people get older and the grow up they tend to see the naivety of their previous political views.
I believe that as a minimum the Leave numbers will remain constant and once shown that the sky didn't fall, planes didn't fall out of the sky and see project fear for what it was, Leave numbers will increase.
You also assume (wrongly in my opinion) that the EU will still be around in a few generations or, given it's path towards ever closer union and it's own army, that the EU will be seen in the same light as you see it today.
Sorry to piss on your chips but we're not talking about naive 18 year olds. From You Gov figures Leave wasn't ahead in the 25-49 category either. What you believe isn't important either, we all live in our own bubbles and in mine, from the people I interact with, remainers are most definitely not softening to Brexit, quite the opposite.I believe that as a minimum the Leave numbers will remain constant and once shown that the sky didn't fall, planes didn't fall out of the sky and see project fear for what it was, Leave numbers will increase.
You also assume (wrongly in my opinion) that the EU will still be around in a few generations or, given it's path towards ever closer union and it's own army, that the EU will be seen in the same light as you see it today.
Jazzy Jag said:
T0MMY said:
mx5nut said:
Leave Means Leave rally.
Demographics as expected - looks to be a crowd that have spent the best years of their working lives enjoying the benefits of EU membership and are now lining up to have people make them angry about winning the referendum.
Yes, pretty galling that those of us young enough to be living the majority of our lives in a post-Brexit Britain apparently wanted to remain in the EU. Apart from any other factors, the potential result of another referendum would be swinging towards remain purely through natural wastage as people die offDemographics as expected - looks to be a crowd that have spent the best years of their working lives enjoying the benefits of EU membership and are now lining up to have people make them angry about winning the referendum.
I believe that as a minimum the Leave numbers will remain constant and once shown that the sky didn't fall, planes didn't fall out of the sky and see project fear for what it was, Leave numbers will increase.
You also assume (wrongly in my opinion) that the EU will still be around in a few generations or, given it's path towards ever closer union and it's own army, that the EU will be seen in the same light as you see it today.
Not forgetting the disastrous PR shambles the EU experienced at Salzburg, which will have strengthened the resolve to Leave and turned Remain voters into Leave voters.
A 2nd referendum would give a higher majority to Leave, even more so once the EU let on what the consequences of a change of mind to remaining in the EU would be.
The suggestions that our previous membership terms would be as they were pre the referendum, are both naive in the extreme and delusional
T0MMY said:
Jazzy Jag said:
Sorry to piss on your chips, but as people get older and the grow up they tend to see the naivety of their previous political views.
I believe that as a minimum the Leave numbers will remain constant and once shown that the sky didn't fall, planes didn't fall out of the sky and see project fear for what it was, Leave numbers will increase.
You also assume (wrongly in my opinion) that the EU will still be around in a few generations or, given it's path towards ever closer union and it's own army, that the EU will be seen in the same light as you see it today.
Sorry to piss on your chips but we're not talking about naive 18 year olds. From You Gov figures Leave wasn't ahead in the 25-49 category either. What you believe isn't important either, we all live in our own bubbles and in mine, from the people I interact with, remainers are most definitely not softening to Brexit, quite the opposite.I believe that as a minimum the Leave numbers will remain constant and once shown that the sky didn't fall, planes didn't fall out of the sky and see project fear for what it was, Leave numbers will increase.
You also assume (wrongly in my opinion) that the EU will still be around in a few generations or, given it's path towards ever closer union and it's own army, that the EU will be seen in the same light as you see it today.
HTH
T0MMY said:
Jazzy Jag said:
Sorry to piss on your chips, but as people get older and the grow up they tend to see the naivety of their previous political views.
I believe that as a minimum the Leave numbers will remain constant and once shown that the sky didn't fall, planes didn't fall out of the sky and see project fear for what it was, Leave numbers will increase.
You also assume (wrongly in my opinion) that the EU will still be around in a few generations or, given it's path towards ever closer union and it's own army, that the EU will be seen in the same light as you see it today.
Sorry to piss on your chips but we're not talking about naive 18 year olds. From You Gov figures Leave wasn't ahead in the 25-49 category either. What you believe isn't important either, we all live in our own bubbles and in mine, from the people I interact with, remainers are most definitely not softening to Brexit, quite the opposite.I believe that as a minimum the Leave numbers will remain constant and once shown that the sky didn't fall, planes didn't fall out of the sky and see project fear for what it was, Leave numbers will increase.
You also assume (wrongly in my opinion) that the EU will still be around in a few generations or, given it's path towards ever closer union and it's own army, that the EU will be seen in the same light as you see it today.
1. The 'hard brexit' types who want out. They have a religion and will not change their mind.
2. The 'soft brexit' types who voted out but recognise they were lied to and would look again at remaining.
I haven't met a single remainer who has looked at the utter clusterf
k of the past two years and now thinks brexit is just what this country needs.I wouldn't underestimate just how powerful the 'remain' desire is the youngest generation now. The 15/16/17 year olds who didn't get a vote in 2016 would I think be 90% remain.
T0MMY said:
Sorry to piss on your chips but we're not talking about naive 18 year olds. From You Gov figures Leave wasn't ahead in the 25-49 category either. What you believe isn't important either, we all live in our own bubbles and in mine, from the people I interact with, remainers are most definitely not softening to Brexit, quite the opposite.
Which big city do you live in?Helicopter123 said:
Leavers know and speak with are in two camps
1. The 'hard brexit' types who want out. They have a religion and will not change their mind.
2. The 'soft brexit' types who voted out but recognise they were lied to and would look again at remaining.
I haven't met a single remainer who has looked at the utter clusterfk of the past two years and now thinks brexit is just what this country needs.
I wouldn't underestimate just how powerful the 'remain' desire is the youngest generation now. The 15/16/17 year olds who didn't get a vote in 2016 would I think be 90% remain.
You need to get out more.1. The 'hard brexit' types who want out. They have a religion and will not change their mind.
2. The 'soft brexit' types who voted out but recognise they were lied to and would look again at remaining.
I haven't met a single remainer who has looked at the utter clusterf
k of the past two years and now thinks brexit is just what this country needs.I wouldn't underestimate just how powerful the 'remain' desire is the youngest generation now. The 15/16/17 year olds who didn't get a vote in 2016 would I think be 90% remain.
Maybe speak to some grownups
Vanden Saab said:
It is so unfair most of us were too young to vote in the 1975 referendum and could have spent the last 40 years enjoying all the benefits of being outside the EU. Never mind in 20 or 30 years you can vote to rejoin and all the young people will complain you are ruining their future....
That argument makes no sense whatsoever. The only thing you could argue is that the elderly shouldn't have been able to vote in the 1975 referendum as they weren't going to live through the future they were voting on. If you actually read what I said by the way, I wasn't actually arguing for the elderly not to get a vote, just pointing out it's pretty galling that by the time we're feeling the effects of Brexit (good or bad) it's quite conceivable, given the demographic split, that the actual surviving voters would have been a Remain majority. If you think being in your 30s and 40s makes you too naive to make decisions about your future then I'll leave you to that viewpoint, can't really argue an opinion but I doubt you really believe it.
T0MMY said:
psi310398 said:
But the EU has shown (to put it at its mildest) that it is not well disposed towards the UK and is intent on inflicting maximum pain on us as we leave.
Surely that was obvious from the beginning and should have been factored into how you chose to vote in the referendum? Helicopter123 said:
Leavers I know and speak with are in two camps
1. The 'hard brexit' types who want out. They have a religion and will not change their mind.
2. The 'soft brexit' types who voted out but recognise they were lied to and would look again at remaining.
I haven't met a single remainer who has looked at the utter clusterfk of the past two years and now thinks brexit is just what this country needs.
I wouldn't underestimate just how powerful the 'remain' desire is the youngest generation now. The 15/16/17 year olds who didn't get a vote in 2016 would I think be 90% remain.
This sums up things quite well1. The 'hard brexit' types who want out. They have a religion and will not change their mind.
2. The 'soft brexit' types who voted out but recognise they were lied to and would look again at remaining.
I haven't met a single remainer who has looked at the utter clusterf
k of the past two years and now thinks brexit is just what this country needs.I wouldn't underestimate just how powerful the 'remain' desire is the youngest generation now. The 15/16/17 year olds who didn't get a vote in 2016 would I think be 90% remain.
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