How do we think EU negotiations will go? (Vol 4)
Discussion
Jazzy Jag said:
That older generation have had 40years of living the EU utopian dream on which to base an informed decision.
16 year olds know nothing about the real world.
I quite agree, and I don't think they should get a vote at that age. My point was that you need to get right up to the 50+ age group before you find a majority for Leave.16 year olds know nothing about the real world.
Troubleatmill said:
Helicopter123 said:
Leavers I know and speak with are in two camps
1. The 'hard brexit' types who want out. They have a religion and will not change their mind.
2. The 'soft brexit' types who voted out but recognise they were lied to and would look again at remaining.
I haven't met a single remainer who has looked at the utter clusterf
k of the past two years and now thinks brexit is just what this country needs.
I wouldn't underestimate just how powerful the 'remain' desire is the youngest generation now. The 15/16/17 year olds who didn't get a vote in 2016 would I think be 90% remain.
This sums up things quite well1. The 'hard brexit' types who want out. They have a religion and will not change their mind.
2. The 'soft brexit' types who voted out but recognise they were lied to and would look again at remaining.
I haven't met a single remainer who has looked at the utter clusterf
k of the past two years and now thinks brexit is just what this country needs.I wouldn't underestimate just how powerful the 'remain' desire is the youngest generation now. The 15/16/17 year olds who didn't get a vote in 2016 would I think be 90% remain.
It shows a 1% swing to remain, but presuming pre collapse of chequers?
T0MMY said:
Jazzy Jag said:
That older generation have had 40years of living the EU utopian dream on which to base an informed decision.
16 year olds know nothing about the real world.
I quite agree, and I don't think they should get a vote at that age. My point was that you need to get right up to the 50+ age group before you find a majority for Leave.16 year olds know nothing about the real world.
T0MMY said:
See above. Take a look at everything I've written on this thread and take a look at some of the responses. We're turning into the fking yanks with such hyper-partisanship that anything you say is taken as an attack.
You took my response to you as one? Or more generically?king yanks with such hyper-partisanship that anything you say is taken as an attack.On the latter, you've not been around these threads much in the last 2yrs if that's a concern
If the former, it was a response to your observation. You're right about bubbles, we do all live in them (although amusingly the bubble I operate in would typically be Remain and I voted Leave. I suspect I'm just a contrarian
). But ultimately they don't matter.There are very few of even the most ardent Remain advocates on here that don't agree that the Remain campaign was a shambles. It's often tempered by cries that the Leave one was worse (and some then degenerate into comparing the effectiveness and volume of lies
). But the simple fact is it should not have been possible for Remain to lose. The status quo has an inherent advantage in referenda, and the case for the EU should be beyond doubt this far into the project/experiment.That it isn't is telling. That even massively net recipients have issues with it more so.
It needs a rethink. If something material had come out of Cameron's overtures I would have been more than happy to vote Remain. Had Maastricht not happened, there would never have been a referendum to vote in. But the EU leadership don't want to hear any of that. Why?
PurpleMoonlight said:
Garvin said:
If all these people spent “the best years of their working lives enjoying the benefit of EU membership” why on earth do they want to leave the EU?
Because they aren't working anymore and would prefer the EU subs went to the NHS to keep them alive?required to get off their arses and actually take part in politics instead of just moaning about
s
t that didn't go their way.No offence, lay z boy.
Helicopter123 said:
PurpleMoonlight said:
Garvin said:
If all these people spent “the best years of their working lives enjoying the benefit of EU membership” why on earth do they want to leave the EU?
Because they aren't working anymore and would prefer the EU subs went to the NHS to keep them alive?1. The recession that was predicted/promised on just a vote to Leave in Qtr 3 of 2016 never materialised, nor did the one Lagarde promise in 2017 show up.
2. The promised 5-800,000 job losses on a mere vote to leave didn't happen, employment has gone down since June 2016.
3, The promised interest rate rises based purely on a vote to leave come about, nor did the increase mortgage interest rate rises materialise.
Do you want some more?
T0MMY said:
Vanden Saab said:
You need to understand history a little better, In 1975 unlike now it was younger Labour supporters who were anti-EU the Labour conference voted 2-1 against staying in the EU. It was older people who had lived through WW2 who voted to stay in for obvious reasons. When you realise that almost all the older people who voted leave either voted leave in 1975 and lost or were too young to vote and had to wait for 40 years to get a chance to vote again it might give you cause to understand them better.
We have spent the last 40 years living with the result of a vote we were unable to take part in. Now it is your turn.....
Do you have a source for the break down of demographics you describe? From a quick google I only found this http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2017/07/31/the-refer... which suggests the youngest demo still supported the EEC.We have spent the last 40 years living with the result of a vote we were unable to take part in. Now it is your turn.....
LSE said:
The pattern of voting across age groups showed that support for staying in the EEC was actually higher amongst older age groups: 80 per cent of those aged 65 and older voted in favour of membership, compared to 73 per cent and 72 per cent, respectively, of those aged 45-64 and 30-44; it was lowest at 62 per cent of those aged 18-29.
gooner1 said:
PurpleMoonlight said:
Garvin said:
If all these people spent “the best years of their working lives enjoying the benefit of EU membership” why on earth do they want to leave the EU?
Because they aren't working anymore and would prefer the EU subs went to the NHS to keep them alive?required to get off their arses and actually take part in politics instead of just moaning about
s
t that didn't go their way.No offence, lay z boy.
Helicopter123 said:
PurpleMoonlight said:
Garvin said:
If all these people spent “the best years of their working lives enjoying the benefit of EU membership” why on earth do they want to leave the EU?
Because they aren't working anymore and would prefer the EU subs went to the NHS to keep them alive?don'tbesilly said:
gooner1 said:
PurpleMoonlight said:
Garvin said:
If all these people spent “the best years of their working lives enjoying the benefit of EU membership” why on earth do they want to leave the EU?
Because they aren't working anymore and would prefer the EU subs went to the NHS to keep them alive?required to get off their arses and actually take part in politics instead of just moaning about
s
t that didn't go their way.No offence, lay z boy.
Murph7355 said:
You took my response to you as one? Or more generically?
On the latter, you've not been around these threads much in the last 2yrs if that's a concern
I hadn't even seen this thread at all until a couple of days ago. No not your response, and yes more generically, just the tone of the thread. This sort of "haha we won so fOn the latter, you've not been around these threads much in the last 2yrs if that's a concern
k you" type attitude, but perhaps the Leavers would have been just the same if they'd won. The other thing I find a bit depressing is this disdain for what people may actually want...like pointing out that if the young didn't get out to vote in enough numbers that's their fault so fk them. Whilst that is true on one level, on another level it suggests that many people were more interested in winning than on any notion of making absolutely sure we are doing what people actually want. This is why I find the incredible opposition to another referendum amazing...if you're confident attitudes haven't changed then it doesn't matter, you'll get a stronger mandate. The point is that we all know a hell of a lot more about brexit now than we did 2 years ago and this is an incredibly important decision, more so than which government we get for a 5 year spell and we do of course get to change our minds about that one.
Vanden Saab said:
Did you read that? the vote to stay was 67% but...
The point is, that staying was still what the majority of the youngest demo wanted (in fact every demo). That was overwhelmingly not the case in the recent ref.LSE said:
The pattern of voting across age groups showed that support for staying in the EEC was actually higher amongst older age groups: 80 per cent of those aged 65 and older voted in favour of membership, compared to 73 per cent and 72 per cent, respectively, of those aged 45-64 and 30-44; it was lowest at 62 per cent of those aged 18-29.
So far this morning all I’ve learned from this discussion is that a few vocal remoaniacs care so much about the rights of the people, as provided by the almighty European Union, that they want the views of elderly people scrubbed from the referendum because it would swing the vote in their own favour.
T0MMY said:
mx5nut said:
Leave Means Leave rally.
Demographics as expected - looks to be a crowd that have spent the best years of their working lives enjoying the benefits of EU membership and are now lining up to have people make them angry about winning the referendum.
Yes, pretty galling that those of us young enough to be living the majority of our lives in a post-Brexit Britain apparently wanted to remain in the EU. Apart from any other factors, the potential result of another referendum would be swinging towards remain purely through natural wastage as people die offDemographics as expected - looks to be a crowd that have spent the best years of their working lives enjoying the benefits of EU membership and are now lining up to have people make them angry about winning the referendum.
Kenny Powers said:
So far this morning all I’ve learned from this discussion is that a few vocal remoaniacs care so much about the rights of the people, as provided by the almighty European Union, that they want the views of elderly people scrubbed from the referendum because it would swing the vote in their own favour.
...although I actually didn't say that at all.T0MMY said:
...like pointing out that if the young didn't get out to vote in enough numbers that's their fault so fk them. Whilst that is true on one level, on another level it suggests that many people were more interested in winning than on any notion of making absolutely sure we are doing what people actually want.
If that's referring to my comment don't read too much into it - there was no 'fk them. Whilst that is true on one level, on another level it suggests that many people were more interested in winning than on any notion of making absolutely sure we are doing what people actually want. k 'em' implied, just the notion that if you can't be bothered to vote you have very little cause to be upset if it doesn't go your way. My own point of view may be remain or leave - but that doesn't alter the situation with respect to moaning about something if you can't muster the energy to have your say at the proper time.
I knew it was a mistake to stick my beak in on this one
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