Are labour antisemitic?
Discussion
Corbyn still doesn't believe it's anti-Semitic to refer to the creation of Israel as racist.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/09/04/je...
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/09/04/je...
gadgetmac said:
Interesting, lets see how true both of thse points are:
1. Can you show me the actual phrase in the ‘charter’ that calls for ALL Jews to be killed.
2. https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jul/04/j...
Certainly,1. Can you show me the actual phrase in the ‘charter’ that calls for ALL Jews to be killed.
2. https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jul/04/j...
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas_Covenant#Vio...
Gameface said:
As ever, there's a but.We're not anti-semitic, but.....
As much as I love a bit of Corbyn (and Labour) -bashing, I really don't see what all the fuss was about. From what I've seen on the news today, the row revolved around Labour not adopting the holocaust remembrance guidelines 100%. They left out the example of comparing Israeli government actions to those of nazis being an antisemitic act.
To me, that seems fair enough. While it may be in bad taste, what's antisemitic about such comparisons? Israel, like just about every other state, has done some not very nice things.
Media are now banging on about the inclusion of a freedom of speech clause being a way of getting around it (which it is, but isn't freedom of speech an inalienable right in a free society?). Banning free speech in a political party would be the start of a very slippery slope.
Oh, and I don't consider myself to be antisemitic. My late father was Jewish.
To me, that seems fair enough. While it may be in bad taste, what's antisemitic about such comparisons? Israel, like just about every other state, has done some not very nice things.
Media are now banging on about the inclusion of a freedom of speech clause being a way of getting around it (which it is, but isn't freedom of speech an inalienable right in a free society?). Banning free speech in a political party would be the start of a very slippery slope.
Oh, and I don't consider myself to be antisemitic. My late father was Jewish.
James_B said:
gadgetmac said:
Interesting, lets see how true both of thse points are:
1. Can you show me the actual phrase in the ‘charter’ that calls for ALL Jews to be killed.
2. https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jul/04/j...
Certainly,1. Can you show me the actual phrase in the ‘charter’ that calls for ALL Jews to be killed.
2. https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jul/04/j...
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas_Covenant#Vio...
clockworks said:
As much as I love a bit of Corbyn (and Labour) -bashing, I really don't see what all the fuss was about. From what I've seen on the news today, the row revolved around Labour not adopting the holocaust remembrance guidelines 100%. They left out the example of comparing Israeli government actions to those of nazis being an antisemitic act.
To me, that seems fair enough. While it may be in bad taste, what's antisemitic about such comparisons? Israel, like just about every other state, has done some not very nice things.
Media are now banging on about the inclusion of a freedom of speech clause being a way of getting around it (which it is, but isn't freedom of speech an inalienable right in a free society?). Banning free speech in a political party would be the start of a very slippery slope.
Oh, and I don't consider myself to be antisemitic. My late father was Jewish.
as I see it the issue is that Israel is held to a higher/different standard to any other country in the world - it will be interesting to see if that now changes. It'll also be interesting to see if some truly vile comments by some of the NEC will be investigated....To me, that seems fair enough. While it may be in bad taste, what's antisemitic about such comparisons? Israel, like just about every other state, has done some not very nice things.
Media are now banging on about the inclusion of a freedom of speech clause being a way of getting around it (which it is, but isn't freedom of speech an inalienable right in a free society?). Banning free speech in a political party would be the start of a very slippery slope.
Oh, and I don't consider myself to be antisemitic. My late father was Jewish.
I'll not hold my breath
irocfan said:
clockworks said:
As much as I love a bit of Corbyn (and Labour) -bashing, I really don't see what all the fuss was about. From what I've seen on the news today, the row revolved around Labour not adopting the holocaust remembrance guidelines 100%. They left out the example of comparing Israeli government actions to those of nazis being an antisemitic act.
To me, that seems fair enough. While it may be in bad taste, what's antisemitic about such comparisons? Israel, like just about every other state, has done some not very nice things.
Media are now banging on about the inclusion of a freedom of speech clause being a way of getting around it (which it is, but isn't freedom of speech an inalienable right in a free society?). Banning free speech in a political party would be the start of a very slippery slope.
Oh, and I don't consider myself to be antisemitic. My late father was Jewish.
as I see it the issue is that Israel is held to a higher/different standard to any other country in the world - it will be interesting to see if that now changes. It'll also be interesting to see if some truly vile comments by some of the NEC will be investigated....To me, that seems fair enough. While it may be in bad taste, what's antisemitic about such comparisons? Israel, like just about every other state, has done some not very nice things.
Media are now banging on about the inclusion of a freedom of speech clause being a way of getting around it (which it is, but isn't freedom of speech an inalienable right in a free society?). Banning free speech in a political party would be the start of a very slippery slope.
Oh, and I don't consider myself to be antisemitic. My late father was Jewish.
I'll not hold my breath
paulrockliffe said:
Gameface said:
As ever, there's a but.We're not anti-semitic, but.....
irocfan said:
as I see it the issue is that Israel is held to a higher/different standard to any other country in the world - it will be interesting to see if that now changes.
The IHRA definition is clear.Israeli government policy/actions are fair game for criticism, on the same basis as any other country's government's policy/actions.
Labour were happy adopting that.
The bit Labour were reluctant to adopt was the bit saying you can't question the very existence of the country of Israel...
That does not seem overly prescriptive to me, and I didn't think it would be hard to keep to - just accept it's a fact of life, and has been for seventy bloody years.
Except OoohJeremy can't stop himself, can he?
gadgetmac said:
We’ve done this, go back and read the thread.
I read it. You are basically arguing dishonestly in it, reading a charter that calls for the death of the Jews, with no qualification, and arguing, with no evidence, that they just mean some Jews.That you actually seem to think that that is some kind of defence for being so close for them would be shocking if antisemitism was not so damned common on the left nowadays.
Do you not understand that decent people don’t read a charter calling for religious slaughter and argue that it’s not so bad.
What’s your reasoning here, you think that Jews are rich, so deserve it?
Halb said:
Caught this on the news, you had one lot of Jewish faith decrying JC, and another lot, some including traditional Hasidics, saying he was right...it's a funny old world.
If you mean Jewish Voice for Labour, they're a tiny fringe movement who are about as representative of Judaism as the Westbro Baptist Church are to ChristianityTooMany2cvs said:
Israeli government policy/actions are fair game for criticism, on the same basis as any other country's government's policy/actions.
y'see this is the bit I struggle with. Why on earth shouldn't Israel be criticised for her actions? It's only proper. But to see the amount of opprobrium heaped on them (even in comparison to Venezuela, Zim, China, Saudi, Turkey to name but a few) is staggering and the only reason for the vast difference in protests about them that I can see is that they're Jewish.irocfan said:
TooMany2cvs said:
Israeli government policy/actions are fair game for criticism, on the same basis as any other country's government's policy/actions.
y'see this is the bit I struggle with. Why on earth shouldn't Israel be criticised for her actions? It's only proper.irocfan said:
But to see the amount of opprobrium heaped on them (even in comparison to Venezuela, Zim, China, Saudi, Turkey to name but a few) is staggering and the only reason for the vast difference in protests about them that I can see is that they're Jewish.
No, the reason is that they're systematically practicing mass apartheid of their citizens on the basis of religious origin.There is something I can't work out about it requiring the best part of a full day, plus presumably a bunch of pre-meeting conversations, simply to do what (most of) the rest of the world already does.
And then you still manage to go and f
k it up by trying to come up with some words around how it can be OK to keep doing the stuff that got you into this mess.
You can't change the character of the people who do this - an agreement will do nothing.
And then you still manage to go and f
k it up by trying to come up with some words around how it can be OK to keep doing the stuff that got you into this mess.You can't change the character of the people who do this - an agreement will do nothing.
Not studied this topic in any length, but it seems to me the clarification of free speech ability to criticise Israel would not have been needed if the pro Israel lobby didn't try to shut down any/all criticism of Israel's (ie the government's) actions as anti-sematic.
They've reaped what they sewed. It's left them flat footed and flailing round with nonsense like a racists charter.
Now, all we need Labour to do is to agree the same clarification for every other group that pulls out their "ism card" when faced with legitimate criticism...
...as if...that would be Labour's bread and butter gone.
In this way alone, I can see how Israel is being singled out, because their protected characteristic obviously isn't as special to Labour as other groups'.
I still wouldn't call that anti semitic though
They've reaped what they sewed. It's left them flat footed and flailing round with nonsense like a racists charter.
Now, all we need Labour to do is to agree the same clarification for every other group that pulls out their "ism card" when faced with legitimate criticism...
...as if...that would be Labour's bread and butter gone.
In this way alone, I can see how Israel is being singled out, because their protected characteristic obviously isn't as special to Labour as other groups'.
I still wouldn't call that anti semitic though
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