Are labour antisemitic?
Discussion
Ian Geary said:
Not studied this topic in any length, but it seems to me the clarification of free speech ability to criticise Israel would not have been needed if the pro Israel lobby didn't try to shut down any/all criticism of Israel's (ie the government's) actions as anti-sematic.
They've reaped what they sewed. It's left them flat footed and flailing round with nonsense like a racists charter.
Now, all we need Labour to do is to agree the same clarification for every other group that pulls out their "ism card" when faced with legitimate criticism...
...as if...that would be Labour's bread and butter gone.
In this way alone, I can see how Israel is being singled out, because their protected characteristic obviously isn't as special to Labour as other groups'.
I still wouldn't call that anti semitic though
The clarification doesn't achieve what you appear to believe... They've reaped what they sewed. It's left them flat footed and flailing round with nonsense like a racists charter.
Now, all we need Labour to do is to agree the same clarification for every other group that pulls out their "ism card" when faced with legitimate criticism...
...as if...that would be Labour's bread and butter gone.
In this way alone, I can see how Israel is being singled out, because their protected characteristic obviously isn't as special to Labour as other groups'.
I still wouldn't call that anti semitic though
The IHRA are entirely fine with criticism of Israel - no shouts of anti-semitism there.
The clarification specifically relates to challenges to Israel's right to exist, which is something rather different.
LoonyTunes said:
Sway said:
The clarification specifically relates to challenges to Israel's right to exist, which is something rather different.
So it's racist to say that a state shouldn't exist...any state...?Israel didn't exist before 1948.
LoonyTunes said:
Sway said:
The clarification specifically relates to challenges to Israel's right to exist, which is something rather different.
So it's racist to say that a state shouldn't exist...any state...?Israel didn't exist before 1948.
Pre-1948 is rather irrelevant. There's a vast difference between 'should not be formed' and 'should cease to exist'.
The key issue isn't whether Labour are antisemetic, the key issue is whether Labour are fit to govern.
This whole topic has been hijacked and magnified by the different factions in Labour (and plenty outside Labour too) to try and score points and gain some control, or claw control back. Corbyns credibility to unite the party has taken a very public beating, failure to quash pointless internal bickering like this shows weak leadership IMHO.
Those in Labour who oppose Corbyn have scored a few points, but more worrying is that we have an opposition which is as weak and dysfunctional as the Government. A sad state of affairs.
This whole topic has been hijacked and magnified by the different factions in Labour (and plenty outside Labour too) to try and score points and gain some control, or claw control back. Corbyns credibility to unite the party has taken a very public beating, failure to quash pointless internal bickering like this shows weak leadership IMHO.
Those in Labour who oppose Corbyn have scored a few points, but more worrying is that we have an opposition which is as weak and dysfunctional as the Government. A sad state of affairs.
Sway said:
LoonyTunes said:
Sway said:
The clarification specifically relates to challenges to Israel's right to exist, which is something rather different.
So it's racist to say that a state shouldn't exist...any state...?Israel didn't exist before 1948.
Pre-1948 is rather irrelevant. There's a vast difference between 'should not be formed' and 'should cease to exist'.
To an extent, I don't quite understand why a specific definition of anti-semitism is required - given that is just another form of racism (usually) or religious prejudice (occasionally).
It's not different, yet there seems a mind set that it is - Naz Shah's "light hearted" endorsement of genocide and ethnic cleansing - can you imagine her making that joke (?) about any other group? Corbyn's support for a mural with crude racial stereotypes, or his comments along the lines of "despite having lived most of their lives here..." - inconceivable that anyone outside the EDL, or the moron wing of the Conservative party, would apply terms like that to anybody else.
Nobody else gets a lecture on why they're not actually the victims of racism when they complain.
And the obsession with Israel of a slice of Labour activists (plus one LibDem politician I can think of) is so bizarre it's almost pathological - as if there are absolutely no other problems in the world.
Still, occasionally I can see the funny side of "we're not antisemitic - it's all a plot by rootless cosmopolitans" as a defence. If you could buy self-awareness in tons, I'd pony up and donate some myself to Labour. The 'Momentum Defence' has overtaken the Nuremburg for the moment, but, given the increasing importance of party discipline, who knows.
For the record, I've been a criticism of various policies of the government of Israel for as long as I can recall, and yet not once have I ever been accused of anti-semitism. It's not really that hard.
It's not different, yet there seems a mind set that it is - Naz Shah's "light hearted" endorsement of genocide and ethnic cleansing - can you imagine her making that joke (?) about any other group? Corbyn's support for a mural with crude racial stereotypes, or his comments along the lines of "despite having lived most of their lives here..." - inconceivable that anyone outside the EDL, or the moron wing of the Conservative party, would apply terms like that to anybody else.
Nobody else gets a lecture on why they're not actually the victims of racism when they complain.
And the obsession with Israel of a slice of Labour activists (plus one LibDem politician I can think of) is so bizarre it's almost pathological - as if there are absolutely no other problems in the world.
Still, occasionally I can see the funny side of "we're not antisemitic - it's all a plot by rootless cosmopolitans" as a defence. If you could buy self-awareness in tons, I'd pony up and donate some myself to Labour. The 'Momentum Defence' has overtaken the Nuremburg for the moment, but, given the increasing importance of party discipline, who knows.
For the record, I've been a criticism of various policies of the government of Israel for as long as I can recall, and yet not once have I ever been accused of anti-semitism. It's not really that hard.
Edited by Octoposse on Wednesday 5th September 09:34
Sway said:
No one is?
North Korea? 100,000’s of people in brutal forced labour camps often for no better reason that a relative expressed dissatisfaction at the leadership of the countryContrast that with Palestine where the circumstances of existence there are due to the uncompromisingly commuted aggression of the terrorist organisation that is in charge
jakesmith said:
Sway said:
No one is?
North Korea? 100,000’s of people in brutal forced labour camps often for no better reason that a relative expressed dissatisfaction at the leadership of the countryContrast that with Palestine where the circumstances of existence there are due to the uncompromisingly commuted aggression of the terrorist organisation that is in charge
'no one is' was reference to claims that criticising the Israeli government or policies were decried as anti-semitic. Which no one is stating...
Really not sure of the relevance of North Korea to that point?
LoonyTunes said:
Sway said:
LoonyTunes said:
Sway said:
The clarification specifically relates to challenges to Israel's right to exist, which is something rather different.
So it's racist to say that a state shouldn't exist...any state...?Israel didn't exist before 1948.
Pre-1948 is rather irrelevant. There's a vast difference between 'should not be formed' and 'should cease to exist'.
If you cannot see the difference between a short term parish council grumble, and the spoils of war leading to the formation of a new nation /shifted national boundaries - 70 years ago - then I'm afraid we're unlikely to come to the same view.
That's why pre-48 is irrelevant.
Plenty of other nations have been formed/shifted in the intervening years - any examples of any other nation where it's 'normal' or 'non discriminatory' to call for it to cease to exist?
Can you really not see the extremism there?
Sway said:
LoonyTunes said:
Sway said:
LoonyTunes said:
Sway said:
The clarification specifically relates to challenges to Israel's right to exist, which is something rather different.
So it's racist to say that a state shouldn't exist...any state...?Israel didn't exist before 1948.
Pre-1948 is rather irrelevant. There's a vast difference between 'should not be formed' and 'should cease to exist'.
If you cannot see the difference between a short term parish council grumble, and the spoils of war leading to the formation of a new nation /shifted national boundaries - 70 years ago - then I'm afraid we're unlikely to come to the same view.
That's why pre-48 is irrelevant.
Plenty of other nations have been formed/shifted in the intervening years - any examples of any other nation where it's 'normal' or 'non discriminatory' to call for it to cease to exist?
Can you really not see the extremism there?
You're not a big believer in free speech are you.
With all of this land grabbing thats been going on in order to grow Israel - would I be racist to say that that too shouldn't exist and should be handed back to the Palestinians?
LoonyTunes said:
Sway said:
LoonyTunes said:
Sway said:
LoonyTunes said:
Sway said:
The clarification specifically relates to challenges to Israel's right to exist, which is something rather different.
So it's racist to say that a state shouldn't exist...any state...?Israel didn't exist before 1948.
Pre-1948 is rather irrelevant. There's a vast difference between 'should not be formed' and 'should cease to exist'.
If you cannot see the difference between a short term parish council grumble, and the spoils of war leading to the formation of a new nation /shifted national boundaries - 70 years ago - then I'm afraid we're unlikely to come to the same view.
That's why pre-48 is irrelevant.
Plenty of other nations have been formed/shifted in the intervening years - any examples of any other nation where it's 'normal' or 'non discriminatory' to call for it to cease to exist?
Can you really not see the extremism there?
You're not a big believer in free speech are you. I'm a huge believer in free speech. That doesn't mean absolutely unmoderated in any form. Think what you like, but having a platform to call for the destruction of a nation state is crossing the line in my view (and I'd posit the view of the majority). Change the word 'Israel' for any other nation and scan it back...
With all of this land grabbing thats been going on in order to grow Israel - would I be racist to say that that too shouldn't exist and should be handed back to the Palestinians? That's an entirely different point, and would come under the freedom to criticise policy and action, rather than existence...
Sway said:
You've completely missed the context of my post you've quoted...
'no one is' was reference to claims that criticising the Israeli government or policies were decried as anti-semitic. Which no one is stating...
Really not sure of the relevance of North Korea to that point?
Well, your post reads two ways doesn’t it'no one is' was reference to claims that criticising the Israeli government or policies were decried as anti-semitic. Which no one is stating...
Really not sure of the relevance of North Korea to that point?
But great I’m glad I got the wrong one
Sway said:
George Smiley said:
its bloody stupid to be classing criticism of the Israeli govt as antisemitic.
they are as bad as others we openly criticise
No one is? they are as bad as others we openly criticise
Sway said:
LooneyTunes said:
With all of this land grabbing thats been going on in order to grow Israel - would I be racist to say that that too shouldn't exist and should be handed back to the Palestinians?
That's an entirely different point, and would come under the freedom to criticise policy and action, rather than existence... Am I racist for saying that Israel shouldn't exist in those parts 'land grabbed' since 1967?
Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff