Jeremy Corbyn (Vol. 3)

[johnxjsc1985]

A Winner Is You said:

Or as recent as the 1970's

possibly why some of us have difficulty with the modern definition of poverty. Glasgow. Liverpool,Leeds,Manchester,and lots of other big Cities had terrible housing conditions right up to the mid 1970's when a housing regeneration / modernisation programme took place and people had for the first time indoor bathroom facilities ( I mean toilets) and running hot water.

[edh]

ape x said:

irocfan said:

ape x said:

RichB said:

ndeed - it's at times like this I wish Pistonheads had an ignore button.

Or a ban on chopping up posts to take out any context...

context? you wrote "...funny how the Jews get a free pass on the holocaust..." there is no fking context you fking throbber.

The context and key part was

"Not saying either shouldn't BTW, both were shocking moments in history, but strange how some dismiss one whilst getting behind another...."

Both the Jews and Black people have been treated over history far far worse than any White English people....
But on here there is far more support for taking a stand agaisnt antisemitism, than racism (against black people) or Islamophobia.

I just find it odd....
In the context of this section of the forum the only area no one steps into is antisemitism (but support for the alt right is very much evident) and yet Islamophobia is encouraged...


I personally am against both....not just one...
I may mean i don't fit in around here, but it is what it is...

You chose a very clumsy way of expressing it. If you had made the point in the way you did above it might have been a bit better.

[ape x]

Sorry forgive me.... were black people running the country back then and oppressing the white English populace?

Some White people live like st today in England still!
So the system is fked... that has nothing to do with racism through does it?
Cutting benefits and sanctions isn't racist....
It may be many things..but it isn't that...

[johnxjsc1985]

ape x said:

Sorry forgive me.... were black people running the country back then and oppressing the white English populace?

Some White people live like st today in England still!
So the system is fked... that has nothing to do with racism through does it?
Cutting benefits and sanctions isn't racist....
It may be many things..but it isn't that...

grow up and come back when you actually understand what you are writing.

[irocfan]

johnxjsc1985 said:

grow up and come back when you actually understand what you are writing.

Truth be told chap I think that Techiedave has it spot on with regard to this . Ignore, ignore and ignore

[johnxjsc1985]

irocfan said:

Truth be told chap I think that Techiedave has it spot on with regard to this . Ignore, ignore and ignore

I guess if its good enough for Techiedave its good enough for me

[Johnnytheboy]

ape x said:

I just find it odd....
In the context of this section of the forum the only area no one steps into is antisemitism (but support for the alt right is very much evident) and yet Islamophobia is encouraged...

The antisemitism of the Left gets a lot of attention perhaps because it comes from a position on the political spectrum that prides itself on how anti-racist it is.

[irocfan]

johnxjsc1985 said:

irocfan said:

Truth be told chap I think that Techiedave has it spot on with regard to this . Ignore, ignore and ignore

I guess if its good enough for Techiedave its good enough for me

given some of TD's pronouncements with regard to ET and DA I do hope you'll reconsider your thinking!!!

[RichB]

johnxjsc1985 said:

possibly why some of us have difficulty with the modern definition of poverty. Glasgow. Liverpool,Leeds,Manchester,and lots of other big Cities had terrible housing conditions right up to the mid 1970's when a housing regeneration / modernisation programme took place and people had for the first time indoor bathroom facilities ( I mean toilets) and running hot water.

And I thought poverty was not having Sky TV or enough money for fags?

[jakesmith]

edh said:

I wasn't "minimising", I was challenging this blatant misrepresentation. It appear to be a common tactic of yours, to present your opinion as fact, and then condemn Labour on that basis.

I’ve called you out for exactly what you are doing plain and simple so you’re trying to point it back at me

Your explanations and excuses convince few on here apart from maybe at a push, yourself. Your comments and bluster say everything about you and the lack of credibility of your position.

[jakesmith]

edh said:

I am also surprised you think you have the right to dictate what a party that you oppose should think and what they should do.

Do I not have the right to hope for a better opposition to the diabolical conservatives and do I not have the right to call out the opposition for being crap?

On the basis of your argument you are not free to criticise the Conservatives as they are not your party

I like many, would welcome a better Labour Party, free of blatant racism and hypocrisy, whether I will vote for them or not.

Your point lacks any merit whatsoever but the good thing is it is out there for everyone to see and continue to judge you on.

[biggbn]

Jake, surely you must concede racism is not an exclusively labour thing? It is, unfortunately, endemic in society and occurs, fragmented, throughout our institutions. Constantly pointing the finger at one group will never achieve a solution. I have met, perhaps one or two people in my life who were genuinely antisemitic, a whole lot more who were genuinely anti Islam or racist against black people. I have met more again who are sexist, or unfortunately, a combination of all of the above. Any form of division, racism etc is unacceptable, simple. I will not stand for it and neither should any right minded person.

Counterpoint..just because I personally have only met a few antisemites does not mean they do not exist in larger numbers, and if others have rarely experienced other forms of racism, neither does that exclude the possibility of it being more widespread than their sphere of experience.

Let's accept it exists and take action against it in all its forms. It is indubitable that all forms of discrimination exist and are not exclusive to any ideology or culture, anyone who thinks otherwise is naive in the extreme

[jakesmith]

biggbn said:

Jake, surely you must concede racism is not an exclusively labour thing? It is, unfortunately, endemic in society and occurs, fragmented, throughout our institutions. Constantly pointing the finger at one group will never achieve a solution. I have met, perhaps one or two people in my life who were genuinely antisemitic, a whole lot more who were genuinely anti Islam or racist against black people. I have met more again who are sexist, or unfortunately, a combination of all of the above. Any form of division, racism etc is unacceptable, simple. I will not stand for it and neither should any right minded person.

Counterpoint..just because I personally have only met a few antisemites does not mean they do not exist in larger numbers, and if others have rarely experienced other forms of racism, neither does that exclude the possibility of it being more widespread than their sphere of experience.

Let's accept it exists and take action against it in all its forms. It is indubitable that all forms of discrimination exist and are not exclusive to any ideology or culture, anyone who thinks otherwise is naive in the extreme

Bgbnn I am not making the assertion that you imply I am, that Labour have a monopoly on racism - although they certainly put forward a compelling case for it in mainstream politics today

This is a thread entitled ‘Jeremy Corbyn’ and it is not ‘whataboutery’ or deflection to discuss whether he is a racist and why, on a thread about him

We always have edh for the purpose of balance who can point to the fact that in 1986 Corbyn walked past a synagogue and didn’t spit on the ground, as an incontrovertible counter to the ton of evidence that suggests otherwise

[biggbn]

jakesmith said:

Bgbnn I am not making the assertion that you imply I am, that Labour have a monopoly on racism - although they certainly put forward a compelling case for it in mainstream politics today

This is a thread entitled ‘Jeremy Corbyn’ and it is not ‘whataboutery’ or deflection to discuss whether he is a racist and why, on a thread about him

We always have edh for the purpose of balance who can point to the fact that in 1986 Corbyn walked past a synagogue and didn’t spit on the ground, as an incontrovertible counter to the ton of evidence that suggests otherwise

Do you think corbyn is an antisemite? Genuinely interested. I don't think he has acted quickly enough when the problem has arisen but CAN understand his initial unwillingness to adopt the ihra definition of antisemitism as it does seem to heavily preclude any criticism of the Jewish state or it's actions, as I understand it, although I am prepared to be corrected on that. I don't think he is an antisemite, I just don't think he is a very good leader.

I must point out Jake, your point about this being a thread about corbyn, so indirectly about labour is valid...yet many, yourself included as I remember, did nothing but mention labour antisemitism in the thread I started about Tory islamaphobia allegations...the goose/gander sauce equation seems unfairly tilted on this occasion?

Anyhow, just in from work, managed not to get hurt or hurt anyone so good shift. Off to kip, have a great day, Gbn

[ellroy]

The big problem for JC and the IHRA definition is that he is guilty of breaking at least one of the clauses, I can’t recall which one off the top of my head, but the A-S Jewish community on twitter were all over it a couple of months ago.

To my mind that could have been inadvertent, but the evidence continues to stack up on that basis. I truly don’t think he sees himself as A-S, but that doesn’t preclude his thinking being so as defined.

[johnxjsc1985]

Labour and there supporters only defence seems to be but its not only us what about them. Its a bit like Basil Fawlty declaring they started it.

[franki68]

biggbn said:

Do you think corbyn is an antisemite? Genuinely interested. I don't think he has acted quickly enough when the problem has arisen but CAN understand his initial unwillingness to adopt the ihra definition of antisemitism as it does seem to heavily preclude any criticism of the Jewish state or it's actions, as I understand it, although I am prepared to be corrected on that. I don't think he is an antisemite, I just don't think he is a very good leader.

I must point out Jake, your point about this being a thread about corbyn, so indirectly about labour is valid...yet many, yourself included as I remember, did nothing but mention labour antisemitism in the thread I started about Tory islamaphobia allegations...the goose/gander sauce equation seems unfairly tilted on this occasion?

Anyhow, just in from work, managed not to get hurt or hurt anyone so good shift. Off to kip, have a great day, Gbn

What element of the ihra definition precludes criticism of Israel ?

As an observation to another point you made ,growing up I rarely encountered anti semitism,it is totally rampant now .I have experienced and seen more in the last 3 years than I have in the previous 47 years put together.

[motco]

johnxjsc1985 said:

Labour and there supporters only defence seems to be but its not only us what about them. Its a bit like Basil Fawlty declaring they started it.

Well they did!

[AstonZagato]

I'm not sure Corbyn is anti-semitic. I do believe that his hatred of the state of Israel, his unquestioning support for revolutionary marxist terrorists who attack Jewish people as a means of forwarding their own cause, his determination to eradicate capitalism have all blinded him to some obvious facts. That many around him are embracing anti-semitic views. That hatred of Israel has morphed into something more sinister. That support for Palestine has gone hand in glove with disavowing Zionism (on the simple level of a Jewish homeland rather than the state of Israel) and it is a short hop from hatred of Zionism to anti-semitism. That anti-capitalist rhetoric has come to encompass anti-Jewish tropes (e.g, mural). That many of his supporters see wealthy, white Jewish people as the enemy. That people who have fought racism against ethnic minorities could be guilty of racism against a religious group. That the anti-jewish undertone is as powerful a dog-whistle message to large sections of Labour as anti-immigrant language is to large sections of Tories or UKIP. That in failing to take decisive action, he has allowed some supporters to persecute Jewish Labour supporters. In doing that, he has given the message that anti-semiticism is not only tolerated within the Labour party but it is an acceptable set of beliefs, especially if disguised with pro-Palestinian anti-capitalist rhetoric. It will now be very difficult to eradicate.

[biggbn]

franki68 said:

What element of the ihra definition precludes criticism of Israel ?

As an observation to another point you made ,growing up I rarely encountered anti semitism,it is totally rampant now .I have experienced and seen more in the last 3 years than I have in the previous 47 years put together.

Exactly what I said brother man, just because I have not experienced it much, does not mean it does not exist. We should all retain an open mind and accept the possibility that our personal lived experience is a very narrow parameter from which to judge, and accept that other behaviour types exist outside our own perceived existence in the broader collective consciousness, lest we become inward looking and narrow minded.