Jeremy Corbyn (Vol. 3)

[The Don of Croy]

2xChevrons said:

...I'd be very happy if all businesses over a certain size were co-ops or were otherwise mutualised. It's an obvious example, but the John Lewis Parternship is owned by its workers and they have ultimate, albeit occasional, control over the direction of the business and the distribution of its profits. I've worked for the Co-Op and find that a perfectly acceptable way of the workforce 'owning the means of production' while maintaining a useful and practical business structure.

I've said before (I think in this very thread) that I'd be quite content with (if it could be done at the wave of a magic wand) importing the entire German socio-economic model to the UK, and that is hardly a business-unfriendly environment, even if it falls some way short of implementing full-on idealised socialist theory. But that's only an ideal - an framework to build your policy around and a lense to view society through. Name me one political ideology that has ever been implemented successfully to the full. But I see little wrong in Germany's strong labour representation and rights, worker representation requirements, state intervention levels and its contributory but very effective welfare system.

There are many semi-mutual arrangements featured in UK businesses at present - I worked for one in the 1980's. My friend worked for Vitol (a foreign company) and rode the gravy train with his colleagues as the oil price took off and then retired at 40 with mucho cash - all from it's mutuality (and staff share options).

The German 'model' works in Germany. They have a slightly different culture and quite a few interesting foibles when it comes to understanding individuality and accommodating personal preferences. Not all bad, but not all good either.

Likewise the UK has a long and interesting history when it comes to individuality (aka bloody midedness) and how that translates to a lack of progress and inertia. Long subject.

In short we're not them, and their system has evolved to suit their needs (more or less) with some assistance from external investment to compensate for a modicum of over-zealous pest control back in the day...

Right now we could be entering another phase of the industrial revolution and that might change things again, although it will also mean AI gets to debate on t'internet while I scrabble about to find some more Soma.

Either way it doesn't appear socialism or communism is poised to provide answers - at best they will just agitate and seek to build influence through convinving enough 'victims' they can help. So no change.

[anonymous-user]

Mothersruin said:

What 'life' experiences do you get from going to university?

My kids both went to uni and they learned about living away from a cosy home, feeding themselves, socialising.
I have no doubt about that.

However I didn’t go to university, I gained qualifications at the local tech College then in my early twenties left home to work in another part of the country and never went, nor looked,
back.

I have no doubt that a University education is unnecessary for many, especially if it results in a ‘non-degree’.

[T-195]

REALIST123 said:

Mothersruin said:

What 'life' experiences do you get from going to university?

My kids both went to uni and they learned about living away from a cosy home, feeding themselves, socialising.
I have no doubt about that.

However I didn’t go to university, I gained qualifications at the local tech College then in my early twenties left home to work in another part of the country and never went, nor looked,
back.

I have no doubt that a University education is unnecessary for many, especially if it results in a ‘non-degree’.

Unless you want a reasonably paid job these days.

Or would you be happy with a zero hours contract at the local Amazon Depot?

Edited by T-195 on Wednesday 21st August 13:14

[Garvin]

Mothersruin said:

What 'life' experiences do you get from going to university?

I can only speak with authority about my own experiences and, as it was a long, long time ago, perhaps I am out of date but university was an eye opener for me. I met a vast range of people from a very broad spectrum of life, nationalities and cultures and was exposed to a large range of views which certainly ‘educated’ me more than I would have been by remaining within a smaller community. I made a great many friends at university who remain as such and live around the world as well as the UK and are employed in a range of professions. As such my ‘horizons’ were expanded and remain so.

[Dr Jekyll]

Garvin said:

I can only speak with authority about my own experiences and, as it was a long, long time ago, perhaps I am out of date but university was an eye opener for me. I met a vast range of people from a very broad spectrum of life, nationalities and cultures and was exposed to a large range of views which certainly ‘educated’ me more than I would have been by remaining within a smaller community. I made a great many friends at university who remain as such and live around the world as well as the UK and are employed in a range of professions. As such my ‘horizons’ were expanded and remain so.

But people who get jobs at 18 don't exactly stand still for the next three years.

[Bob-iylho]

some gain from uni, some gain from life, but ultimately as you get older the only people I'm envious of are those that are really happy, it's what I strive for and even though I have a lot of lifes materialistic trimmings very little of my total happiness is generated from material stuff.
Some of the most depressed people I know are educated professionals stuck in a rut, the happiest people I know are people who love their jobs and family, with a solid circle (big or small) of friends.

[Garvin]

Dr Jekyll said:

Garvin said:

I can only speak with authority about my own experiences and, as it was a long, long time ago, perhaps I am out of date but university was an eye opener for me. I met a vast range of people from a very broad spectrum of life, nationalities and cultures and was exposed to a large range of views which certainly ‘educated’ me more than I would have been by remaining within a smaller community. I made a great many friends at university who remain as such and live around the world as well as the UK and are employed in a range of professions. As such my ‘horizons’ were expanded and remain so.

But people who get jobs at 18 don't exactly stand still for the next three years.

But I would contend that they don’t benefit from the wider range of experience that a university education can provide which must expand one’s knowledge and outlook on life.

[andy_s]

Garvin said:

Mothersruin said:

What 'life' experiences do you get from going to university?

I can only speak with authority about my own experiences and, as it was a long, long time ago, perhaps I am out of date but university was an eye opener for me. I met a vast range of people from a very broad spectrum of life, nationalities and cultures and was exposed to a large range of views which certainly ‘educated’ me more than I would have been by remaining within a smaller community. I made a great many friends at university who remain as such and live around the world as well as the UK and are employed in a range of professions. As such my ‘horizons’ were expanded and remain so.

Same for me when I joined the army [Not knocking your point]

For the comment above about only having stty jobs available if you don't have a degree; I think that's a bit binary and could easily see an apprentice sparky driving a BMW, owning his own home and being quite secure at 30 whereas I can equally imagine students leaving Uni with a heap of debt, a devalued or 'fringe' degree that have to resort to working in an Amazon warehouse as they have no other skills.

[anonymous-user]

T-195 said:

REALIST123 said:

Mothersruin said:

What 'life' experiences do you get from going to university?

My kids both went to uni and they learned about living away from a cosy home, feeding themselves, socialising.
I have no doubt about that.

However I didn’t go to university, I gained qualifications at the local tech College then in my early twenties left home to work in another part of the country and never went, nor looked,
back.

I have no doubt that a University education is unnecessary for many, especially if it results in a ‘non-degree’.

Unless you want a reasonably paid job these days.

Or would you be happy with a zero hours contract at the local Amazon Depot?

Edited by anonymous-user on Wednesday 21st August 13:14

That’s risible. I know several very successful people, either in employment, running their own small businesses or in some case quite large businesses.

I can’t see a degree in Contemporary Circus or Embroidery, both of which exist, being absolutely necessary can you?

And remember, when the majority of people have degrees, plenty of them will end up on zero hours contracts or flipping burgers.

Anyway, to get to the point; if what you’re going to study is worthwhile it’s worthwhile taking on the less than onerous debt to get it.

[MWM3]

Garvin said:

I can only speak with authority about my own experiences and, as it was a long, long time ago, perhaps I am out of date but university was an eye opener for me. I met a vast range of people from a very broad spectrum of life, nationalities and cultures and was exposed to a large range of views which certainly ‘educated’ me more than I would have been by remaining within a smaller community. I made a great many friends at university who remain as such and live around the world as well as the UK and are employed in a range of professions. As such my ‘horizons’ were expanded and remain so.

Very well put and is similar to my experience.

I will caveat that I did a proper degree rather than one in Harry Potter studies or similar

[Ganglandboss]

T-195 said:

REALIST123 said:

Mothersruin said:

What 'life' experiences do you get from going to university?

My kids both went to uni and they learned about living away from a cosy home, feeding themselves, socialising.
I have no doubt about that.

However I didn’t go to university, I gained qualifications at the local tech College then in my early twenties left home to work in another part of the country and never went, nor looked,
back.

I have no doubt that a University education is unnecessary for many, especially if it results in a ‘non-degree’.

Unless you want a reasonably paid job these days.

Or would you be happy with a zero hours contract at the local Amazon Depot?

Edited by T-195 on Wednesday 21st August 13:14

My mate doesn't have a degree and works at the local Amazon depot. The difference is he is very well paid on account of his City and Guilds in electrical installation and apprenticeship training which enables him to work as a maintenance technician.

[Vaud]

T-195 said:

Unless you want a reasonably paid job these days.
Or would you be happy with a zero hours contract at the local Amazon Depot?

You do know that the likes of Deloitte offer apprentice schemes which require no degree? You can make it a long way up without a degree - probably even partner. The schemes are very popular.

IT services companies increasingly offer them, especially in some areas of coding & cyber security (not just cheap labour for 1st line contact centres)

There are an increasing number of routes to good, well paid employment without a degree.

[turbobloke]

Labour Party infighting, Corbyn's silly plans for capital gains tax which would produce chaos and destroy the housing market, and Corbyn's growing unelectability in general terms are having a clear impact on voting intentions should HoC antics produce a General Election any time soon. This from recent research by Kantor.

Boris and the Turmoil Tories 42%
Jeremy and the Labour Lemmings 28%

[V10leptoquark]

turbobloke said:

Labour Party infighting, Corbyn's silly plans for capital gains tax which would produce chaos and destroy the housing market, and Corbyn's growing unelectability in general terms are having a clear impact on voting intentions should HoC antics produce a General Election any time soon. This from recent research by Kantor.

Boris and the Turmoil Tories 42%
Jeremy and the Labour Lemmings 28%

I think voting intentions are very polarised on brexit at the moment.
If Boris is able to deliver without calling an election, I think the tories will bounce back and be strong at the next term length GE.
If however Boris calls an election prior to brexit both the tories and labour will be pushed aside for a fight between The Brexit Party and the Lib Dems. By which I would assume the brexit party would win quite easily. (Hello PM Farage )

[AJL308]

loafer123 said:

Garvin said:

I like Martin Lewis and whilst his technical myth busting of student loans/debt is correct he misses a crucial point. If going to university enables you to get a better job/career at higher pay than not going to university then he’s ‘right on’. Whilst this may hold for some graduates it is by no means guaranteed for all. There are now so many pretty worthless degrees that a lot of people would be better off getting an apprenticeship or even just to start working earlier without a degree as by the time they would have graduated they will have earned some money without debt and be in as good a position or even better for future prospects and without the debt which will put a drain on their income.

Many youngsters are beginning to realise this so the whole student loan/debt thing is beginning to act as a financial demotivation.

Is that not a good thing?

The proliferation of poor value, poor quality degrees should be discouraged - I absolutely agree with you - apprenticeships are now available for almost everything except Medicine, and are far better in my view.

Agree here too. The vast, vast majority of jobs do not require degree level education to perform. It's not simply poor, value, poor quality or simply pointless degrees it's just that most people don't need one at all. A maths or physics degree from the best university in the Country is pointless for the majority of people as they will never work, or do not aspire to work, in those areas. Unless you intend to work in a profession which for which a specific degree is necessary in order to do the job then why bother and, more importantly, why should it be subsidised? Other than medicine, law and certain sciences and engineering, why should the state help fund your acquisition of something which is, essentially, a personal luxury?

[AJL308]

T-195 said:

REALIST123 said:

Mothersruin said:

What 'life' experiences do you get from going to university?

My kids both went to uni and they learned about living away from a cosy home, feeding themselves, socialising.
I have no doubt about that.

However I didn’t go to university, I gained qualifications at the local tech College then in my early twenties left home to work in another part of the country and never went, nor looked,
back.

I have no doubt that a University education is unnecessary for many, especially if it results in a ‘non-degree’.

Unless you want a reasonably paid job these days.

Or would you be happy with a zero hours contract at the local Amazon Depot?

Edited by T-195 on Wednesday 21st August 13:14

A degree is not essential to be being able to do a reasonably paid job.

[98elise]

Garvin said:

Mothersruin said:

What 'life' experiences do you get from going to university?

I can only speak with authority about my own experiences and, as it was a long, long time ago, perhaps I am out of date but university was an eye opener for me. I met a vast range of people from a very broad spectrum of life, nationalities and cultures and was exposed to a large range of views which certainly ‘educated’ me more than I would have been by remaining within a smaller community. I made a great many friends at university who remain as such and live around the world as well as the UK and are employed in a range of professions. As such my ‘horizons’ were expanded and remain so.

I joined the armed forces at 16. I have the same experiences only better.

I got the best part of 5 years formal education and training.

In my early 20's I was head of a section working on some pretty cool kit, and travelling the world.

All that and I was being paid!

[98elise]

Vaud said:

T-195 said:

Unless you want a reasonably paid job these days.
Or would you be happy with a zero hours contract at the local Amazon Depot?

You do know that the likes of Deloitte offer apprentice schemes which require no degree? You can make it a long way up without a degree - probably even partner. The schemes are very popular.

IT services companies increasingly offer them, especially in some areas of coding & cyber security (not just cheap labour for 1st line contact centres)

There are an increasing number of routes to good, well paid employment without a degree.

IT roles rarely ask for a degree. A proven track record and the right professional qualifications and whats wanted, especially in the well paid roles.

Might be different for an entry level job though.

[anonymous-user]

I remember somebody telling me, a degree just proves that you knew something once.

Great for getting you on the job ladder but irrelevant after that. I have a degree in computer science which is now almost 30 years out of date.

[Le Controleur Horizontal]

wormus said:

I remember somebody telling me, a degree just proves that you knew something once.

Great for getting you on the job ladder but irrelevant after that. I have a degree in computer science which is now almost 30 years out of date.

Hey, someone had to punch holes in all those cards