Jeremy Corbyn (Vol. 3)

[NoddyonNitrous]

He's talking shyte.
The NHS is such a brilliant way to fund and organise a healthcare system that no other country in the world has copied it. Envy of the world my jockstrap. The US system is the other end of the spectrum and used as a bogeyman pantomime villain. The part state-funded/part-insurance model used in Europe is more effective. We need to look at our veterinary services and see what we can learn about customer access - minus the harsh value-based end-stage though..

[Halb]

SpeckledJim said:

Yet, given NHS procurement is very good at always searching out and delivering best value, the expensive American firms looking to rip off the NHS obviously wouldn't stand a chance, would they!?

On the other hand, if the offer from the American firms is actually a good one, then we can trust NHS procurement, with their unerring nose for always delivering best value, to welcome them and thus improve the NHS!

Win Win! Yay!

If you say so.

[Johnnytheboy]

Not-The-Messiah said:

All these arguments he keeps making of the NHS being stolen a race to the bottom on workers rights so they think the EU should be in control of these things.

If I hear someone say "race to the bottom" with any sincerity I can happily discount their views.

[Mothersruin]

Johnnytheboy said:

Not-The-Messiah said:

All these arguments he keeps making of the NHS being stolen a race to the bottom on workers rights so they think the EU should be in control of these things.

If I hear someone say "race to the bottom" with any sincerity I can happily discount their views.

Why? Reducing everyone to the lowest common denominator are a standard Socialist practice. They'd rather drag down the successful rather than empower others.

[Tycho]

It's the same as the crap he talks about letting workers rights and environmental protections decrease of we leave the EU. We would be free to do so but what government would actually do that? They'd be voted our at the next opportunity. He's fear mongering as usual.

[AstonZagato]

Halb said:

otolith said:

He's on about the idea that if we want a deal to sell our stuff in the US, they will want to be able to sell us stuff. One sector very interested in selling their stuff here is the US medical industry. He's claiming that the Tories want to have US medical companies providing NHS care (and also flogging the idea that they want to get rid of free treatment at the point of use and adopt the US system). There isn't anything to stop the Tories doing this within the EU if they'd really wanted to, of course, and Labour has been making those accusations since well before Brexit.

Trying to get AMerican firms into the NHS really would be the death knell for the Tories, they'd be barking to try and do that.

It is, I thought, currently possible for American firms to bid for NHS contracts. One of Labour's shadow ministers was challenged on this topic on R4's Today programme recently. The response was, "Well, we want to stop them doing that".

Edited by AstonZagato on Tuesday 22 October 20:47

[psi310398]

AstonZagato said:

It is, I thought, currently possible for American firms to bid for NHS contracts. Angela Rayner was challenged on this topic on R4's Today programme this morning. Her response was, "Well we want to stop them doing that".

I'm not terribly hot on public procurement rules but IIRC there is a WTO-sponsored Agreement on Government Procurement (the GPA) covering almost 50 WTO members, including the EU MSs, the USA, Canada and Australia, among others. The public health system is included in the scope.

[Halb]

AstonZagato said:

It is, I thought, currently possible for American firms to bid for NHS contracts. One of Labour's shadow ministers was challenged on this topic on R4's Today programme recently. The response was, "Well, we want to stop them doing that".

Edited by AstonZagato on Tuesday 22 October 20:47

I wasn't aware. Cameron knew the NHS was a sacred cow, I would think any Tory leadership would tread very carefully with it going forward if brexit happens. It would be a yuge own goal PR wise to allow the opposition to dictate describing what will happen. Not even getting into the details of how american firms operate. Someone above mentioned that it could happen now, as the UK is still in the EU? I don't know, but a 'fear trigger' would be any mooting of NHS sales after B-Day. I don't see the current lot handling any negotiations competently regardless.

[AstonZagato]

Halb said:

AstonZagato said:

It is, I thought, currently possible for American firms to bid for NHS contracts. One of Labour's shadow ministers was challenged on this topic on R4's Today programme recently. The response was, "Well, we want to stop them doing that".

Edited by AstonZagato on Tuesday 22 October 20:47

I wasn't aware. Cameron knew the NHS was a sacred cow, I would think any Tory leadership would tread very carefully with it going forward if brexit happens. It would be a yuge own goal PR wise to allow the opposition to dictate describing what will happen. Not even getting into the details of how american firms operate. Someone above mentioned that it could happen now, as the UK is still in the EU? I don't know, but a 'fear trigger' would be any mooting of NHS sales after B-Day. I don't see the current lot handling any negotiations competently regardless.

I have just been and checked.

It was John Ashworth, Shadow Health Secretary on R4 Today on 21st Oct
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m0009kxn
His interview starts at 1h:09m and the section on the US bidding on health contracts is at 1:14:00
"That's something that independent health think tanks say is simply not true and the NHS Confederation say is a fuss about nothing. How on earth does this affect the principle of NHS being universal and free at the point of delivery?"
"Because, if the US signs a free trade deal they have said they want access to the NHS."
"But they already have access. Where contracts go out to tender, American companies already operate some of them."
"Yes and we want to undo that"

[jakesmith]

AstonZagato said:

Halb said:

AstonZagato said:

It is, I thought, currently possible for American firms to bid for NHS contracts. One of Labour's shadow ministers was challenged on this topic on R4's Today programme recently. The response was, "Well, we want to stop them doing that".

Edited by AstonZagato on Tuesday 22 October 20:47

I wasn't aware. Cameron knew the NHS was a sacred cow, I would think any Tory leadership would tread very carefully with it going forward if brexit happens. It would be a yuge own goal PR wise to allow the opposition to dictate describing what will happen. Not even getting into the details of how american firms operate. Someone above mentioned that it could happen now, as the UK is still in the EU? I don't know, but a 'fear trigger' would be any mooting of NHS sales after B-Day. I don't see the current lot handling any negotiations competently regardless.

I have just been and checked.

It was John Ashworth, Shadow Health Secretary on R4 Today on 21st Oct
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m0009kxn
His interview starts at 1h:09m and the section on the US bidding on health contracts is at 1:14:00
"That's something that independent health think tanks say is simply not true and the NHS Confederation say is a fuss about nothing. How on earth does this affect the principle of NHS being universal and free at the point of delivery?"
"Because, if the US signs a free trade deal they have said they want access to the NHS."
"But they already have access. Where contracts go out to tender, American companies already operate some of them."
"Yes and we want to undo that"

Sounds like an ideologically driven point from someone lacking basic knowledge of the subject matter to hand, who's supporters afterwards are so ignorant and thick that they think he won the debate
It's the Labour way

[Dr Jekyll]

When the EU signed an FTA with Canada did anyone worry about Canadians taking over the NHS?

Come to that, when the USA signed a deal with Canada did Americans worry about Canadians taking over NASA?

[Johnnytheboy]

Wasn't a problem when Obama was in either.

It's that nasty Mr Trump and his cronies who wants to take over the NHS.

Share and like if you agree.

Oh god, now I'm at it too.

[Gargamel]

In almost every election ever, Labour have suggested the NHS isn’t safe in Tory hands.

This is no different, Labour perceive the NHS to be their biggest election banker topic, since well you know they invented it.

However this idea of sowing fear in the mind of the electorate over something that hasn’t happened yet, I can’t agree with and I don’t think it is the right way to talk about an important subject.

What would Labour do with the NHS in the next five years ?

[Johnnytheboy]

The easy answer to Labour trying to "own" the NHS is the state of it in Wales.

[Zirconia]

Johnnytheboy said:

The easy answer to Labour trying to "own" the NHS is the state of it in Wales.

There is more to what Welsh Labour want going on here if you need a guide. NHS is just part of it, Labour have been in charge since the Assembly first took office, 1999. They even had a serious debate the other day on what to call the Assembly.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-49973... Very serious stuff indeed.

At least we own an airport (don't look to see how it is doing though, spoils the illusion).

[NoddyonNitrous]

Zirconia said:

At least we own an airport (don't look to see how it is doing though, spoils the illusion).

And a shipyard. Get us!

[CambsBill]

Gargamel said:

In almost every election ever, Labour have suggested the NHS isn’t safe in Tory hands.

This is no different, Labour perceive the NHS to be their biggest election banker topic, since well you know they invented it.

Except that it wasn't of course. The White Paper laying out the guidelines for the NHS was published in 1944 by the Conservatives. Nye Bevan took on the role of setting up the NHS when Labour came into power post-WW2.

Interestingly, the original white paper envisaged free health care for visitors to the country as part & parcel of the whole project. Possibly not so many visitors envisaged then though . . .

[Blackpuddin]

Missed this speech by Ian Austin.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XX0paAee8HM

[AstonZagato]

jakesmith said:

AstonZagato said:

Halb said:

AstonZagato said:

It is, I thought, currently possible for American firms to bid for NHS contracts. One of Labour's shadow ministers was challenged on this topic on R4's Today programme recently. The response was, "Well, we want to stop them doing that".

Edited by AstonZagato on Tuesday 22 October 20:47

I wasn't aware. Cameron knew the NHS was a sacred cow, I would think any Tory leadership would tread very carefully with it going forward if brexit happens. It would be a yuge own goal PR wise to allow the opposition to dictate describing what will happen. Not even getting into the details of how american firms operate. Someone above mentioned that it could happen now, as the UK is still in the EU? I don't know, but a 'fear trigger' would be any mooting of NHS sales after B-Day. I don't see the current lot handling any negotiations competently regardless.

I have just been and checked.

It was John Ashworth, Shadow Health Secretary on R4 Today on 21st Oct
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m0009kxn
His interview starts at 1h:09m and the section on the US bidding on health contracts is at 1:14:00
"That's something that independent health think tanks say is simply not true and the NHS Confederation say is a fuss about nothing. How on earth does this affect the principle of NHS being universal and free at the point of delivery?"
"Because, if the US signs a free trade deal they have said they want access to the NHS."
"But they already have access. Where contracts go out to tender, American companies already operate some of them."
"Yes and we want to undo that"

Sounds like an ideologically driven point from someone lacking basic knowledge of the subject matter to hand, who's supporters afterwards are so ignorant and thick that they think he won the debate
It's the Labour way

I'm not sure he lacks basic knowledge. I'd have a large suspicion he knows it is a made-up fear-mongering nonsense story but most people are too stupid to research the truth, so repeat the lie as if it were truth and, sure enough, people believe the lie.

I got some petition from a junior doctor about it the other day, FFS.

[Burwood]

AstonZagato said:

jakesmith said:

AstonZagato said:

Halb said:

AstonZagato said:

It is, I thought, currently possible for American firms to bid for NHS contracts. One of Labour's shadow ministers was challenged on this topic on R4's Today programme recently. The response was, "Well, we want to stop them doing that".

Edited by AstonZagato on Tuesday 22 October 20:47

I wasn't aware. Cameron knew the NHS was a sacred cow, I would think any Tory leadership would tread very carefully with it going forward if brexit happens. It would be a yuge own goal PR wise to allow the opposition to dictate describing what will happen. Not even getting into the details of how american firms operate. Someone above mentioned that it could happen now, as the UK is still in the EU? I don't know, but a 'fear trigger' would be any mooting of NHS sales after B-Day. I don't see the current lot handling any negotiations competently regardless.

I have just been and checked.

It was John Ashworth, Shadow Health Secretary on R4 Today on 21st Oct
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m0009kxn
His interview starts at 1h:09m and the section on the US bidding on health contracts is at 1:14:00
"That's something that independent health think tanks say is simply not true and the NHS Confederation say is a fuss about nothing. How on earth does this affect the principle of NHS being universal and free at the point of delivery?"
"Because, if the US signs a free trade deal they have said they want access to the NHS."
"But they already have access. Where contracts go out to tender, American companies already operate some of them."
"Yes and we want to undo that"

Sounds like an ideologically driven point from someone lacking basic knowledge of the subject matter to hand, who's supporters afterwards are so ignorant and thick that they think he won the debate
It's the Labour way

I'm not sure he lacks basic knowledge. I'd have a large suspicion he knows it is a made-up fear-mongering nonsense story but most people are too stupid to research the truth, so repeat the lie as if it were truth and, sure enough, people believe the lie.

I got some petition from a junior doctor about it the other day, FFS.

100% this. Same reason Corbyn keeps parroting workers rights, job losses and environment (Re BJ Deal). The hard of thinking will just accept is as fact.