Traffic warden gets a kicking in Birmingham

[simoid]

del mar said:

simoid said:

Are you expecting flawless behaviour from all “3rd generation immigrants”?

Surely a percentage of every generation of immigrants will be toerags? Even whichever generation immigrant you are.

I would not have expected it to go wrong so quickly. The sons of doctors and engineers surely look to follow in their parents footsteps.

Our main immigrant groups are over represented in the prison system and in those living in poverty.

Past immigration policies have allowed in the wrong type of migrant in.

You’re a barrel of contradictions. If you’d just stick to the same line of poor logic it would be much easier to help you.

[Countdown]

amusingduck said:

Perhaps what is stupid is to define 'equal opportunity' in a way that means the vast, vast majority of the population will never achieve that criteria.

Anyone can be successful, no matter their start in life. Everyone has equal opportunity in that respect. Nobody is prevented from becoming successful due to their upbringing, though their route to success may be different due to that start.[/b]

The sentence in bold is a contradiction. If everyone has a different start in life then it’s blindingly obvious that their “opportunities” aren’t equal. And by “opportunities” I mean access to decent housing, education, healthcare, peer support and a multitude of socio-economic factors. Their outcomes might be (i.e. They might make different use of whatever opportunities they have (meaning somebody born on a Council estate might become a multi-billionaire or that someone who inherits millions may end up dying in poverty.) but that doesn’t mean that one group doesn’t start off with an inherent disadvantage.

Could we ever achieve genuine “equality of opportunity”? Possibly, possibly not. But that doesn’t mean that we currently have it

[Countdown]

alfaman said:

You are right - however a key question is whether people from a poorer background do have some means of improving their lives via education etc.

It’s having a way to make the best from what you’re born with and born into.

I live in Asia ... where kids from wealthy families will inherit $ ‘00s of millions ... and live like characters in Crazy Rich Asians. ( one of the houses in the film is Just down the road from me...)

I’ll never have that scale of opportunity - same for 99.9% of people here.

People from a relatively poor background can still do well if they are intelligent and/ or hard working enough.

A local friend who comes from parents who were really quite poor ... and who was told she would not have any school or college fees paid ... has made a few $ mill by late 30s working in banking ( smart and works hard ).... it can be done.

She’ll never compete with the ‘posh boys’ who drive around in daddy’s Ferrari or Lambo while not really doing any meaningful work while waiting for their inheritance ... but what she has she has achieved by herself..

I agree.

Re: the bit in bold - yes, i think complete possible and I think the main factor in educational attainment is parental influence and effort.

[del mar]

simoid said:

del mar said:

simoid said:

Are you expecting flawless behaviour from all “3rd generation immigrants”?

Surely a percentage of every generation of immigrants will be toerags? Even whichever generation immigrant you are.

I would not have expected it to go wrong so quickly. The sons of doctors and engineers surely look to follow in their parents footsteps.

Our main immigrant groups are over represented in the prison system and in those living in poverty.

Past immigration policies have allowed in the wrong type of migrant in.

You’re a barrel of contradictions. If you’d just stick to the same line of poor logic it would be much easier to help you.

For every Doctor we seem to have allowed in 1000's of the wrong type.

[del mar]

TooMany2cvs said:

T0MMY said:

There's only a few million benefit claimants in the total population aren't there?

Depends on what you count as "benefits".

If we're talking about Job Seeker's Allowance, then if I'm driving this correctly, there's about 380,000 people nationally - of whom less than 29,000 identified themselves as "Asian" or "Asian British", of whom just 1,665 are males 18-24.

Housing Health education.

No first or second generation Migrant should have free access to these.

[del mar]

TooMany2cvs said:

CooperS said:

The problem for me is that regardless of prosperity chances whether your at one end of the scale or the other no one should think it ok to act like this.

Nobody is suggesting it is.

This is about del mar suggesting that it's inherent to people of a certain background, who can't possibly be expected to live like the rest of us.

I am not, I am suggesting that we have not given any thought to who we have allowed in.

[amusingduck]

Countdown said:

amusingduck said:

Perhaps what is stupid is to define 'equal opportunity' in a way that means the vast, vast majority of the population will never achieve that criteria.

Anyone can be successful, no matter their start in life. Everyone has equal opportunity in that respect. Nobody is prevented from becoming successful due to their upbringing, though their route to success may be different due to that start.[/b]

The sentence in bold is a contradiction. If everyone has a different start in life then it’s blindingly obvious that their “opportunities” aren’t equal. And by “opportunities” I mean access to decent housing, education, healthcare, peer support and a multitude of socio-economic factors.

By that measure, equal opportunity is not achievable. Some will always have it better, some will always have it worse. I don't think it's a good measure.

Countdown said:

Their outcomes might be (i.e. They might make different use of whatever opportunities they have (meaning somebody born on a Council estate might become a multi-billionaire or that someone who inherits millions may end up dying in poverty.) but that doesn’t mean that one group doesn’t start off with an inherent disadvantage.

Could we ever achieve genuine “equality of opportunity”? Possibly, possibly not. But that doesn’t mean that we currently have it

Life is full of inherent disadvantages. No doubt many billions would kill to be as inherently disadvantaged as those who live in the UK.

I think that anybody born in the UK today can reach the highest levels of any profession, regardless of their background. Not everybody can achieve that outcome, but everyone has that opportunity.

What would you change to make things fairer?

[EddieSteadyGo]

Countdown said:

Re: the bit in bold - yes, i think complete possible and I think the main factor in educational attainment is parental influence and effort.

I agree too - parental influence is super imporant. Children need encouragement and challenging to develop and achieve their potential.

I remember in my own fairly average comprehensive school there were many (majority?) who thought school was "boring" and treated the whole thing as a joke. Anyone who made an effort was "square".

Looking back now, there is a clear pattern of attainment linked to their parent's attitudes.

[wc98]

Countdown said:

I agree.

Re: the bit in bold - yes, i think complete possible and I think the main factor in educational attainment is parental influence and effort.

for the uk i used to agree with this. not anymore.the standard of education ,particularly in scotland has dropped. huge amounts of people sending their kids to private tutors outside of school hours to make up for this, quite often due to a lack of teachers in certain subjects. not everyone can afford 25-40 quid an hour for extra tuition.

i can understand the need for cuts in services during tough times but imo adequate funding for education is the single most important thing any country can provide. good education is the answer to every single problem any country can possibly have.

[Countdown]

amusingduck said:

By that measure, equal opportunity is not achievable. Some will always have it better, some will always have it worse. I don't think it's a good measure.

I don't think it's 100% achievable but i think it's something we should always be working towards. We do it to a degree anyway - for example schools funding is linked too deprivation factors

amusingduck said:

Life is full of inherent disadvantages. No doubt many billions would kill to be as inherently disadvantaged as those who live in the UK.

I think that anybody born in the UK today can reach the highest levels of any profession, regardless of their background. Not everybody can achieve that outcome, but everyone has that opportunity.

Only in the same way that a one-legged man has the opportunity to win the 100m Gold at the Olympics. Theroretically he has the opportunity/capability, however he has certain in-built disadvantages.

[TooMany2cvs]

del mar said:

Housing Health education.

No first or second generation Migrant should have free access to these.

No SECOND generation migrant should have access to education or health?
People who were born here?
People who may very well have been born here to people who moved here as children themselves, and may themselves know no other home...?

My other half's mother was Swedish. She moved here in the late 50s to marry a British guy - they met on holiday in Norway. She was a trilingual secretary before she moved here, but didn't really work after she came here, for both "stay-at-home mother" reasons, but also for health reasons - she was diagnosed with MS in the early 60s, and lived with it for nearly 50 years.

You would have denied her access to the NHS for that? And what would you have had her do? Return to Sweden, taking her baby daughter with her... to be an immigrant...?

And that's before we go near your suggestion that my other half should not have access to the NHS, and should not have had any state education AT ALL? Simply because her mother happened to be born the other side of the North Sea?

Or is Swedish the right kind of foreigner...?

[amusingduck]

Countdown said:

amusingduck said:

Life is full of inherent disadvantages. No doubt many billions would kill to be as inherently disadvantaged as those who live in the UK.

I think that anybody born in the UK today can reach the highest levels of any profession, regardless of their background. Not everybody can achieve that outcome, but everyone has that opportunity.

Only in the same way that a one-legged man has the opportunity to win the 100m Gold at the Olympics. Theroretically he has the opportunity/capability, however he has certain in-built disadvantages.

You missed the most important part, what you would do to make things fairer!

The one-legged man does indeed have the same opportunity as everyone else. Though, he might find alternative careers less difficult. Regardless, if the one-legged man does push on with his sprinting career, he'll still be lapping the two-legged lazy gits sat at home

[rscott]

del mar said:

Housing Health education.

No first or second generation Migrant should have free access to these.

What about those where one parent is a migrant and the other 'proper British'? Eg, my partner. Father was British for quite a few generations (ok - the family name is from the Hugenots, so he's foreign too if you go back far enough), but her mother was Swiss.

Should she have paid for half her education and only get half her healthcare free? (Sorry madam, we've checked one breast for cancer, but need your credit card before we'll scan the other).

[Alpinestars]

del mar said:

For every Doctor we seem to have allowed in 1000's of the wrong type.

You’ve still not answered the question of how many generations in the U.K. before you consider people not to be immigrants?

[TooMany2cvs]

Alpinestars said:

You’ve still not answered the question of how many generations in the U.K. before you consider people not to be immigrants?

Oh, he has. Second generation shouldn't be entitled to healthcare, education, housing...

But, presumably, third generation would be.

So somebody whose grandparents arrived here as babes-in-arms would be OK...

[chow pan toon]

TooMany2cvs said:

Alpinestars said:

You’ve still not answered the question of how many generations in the U.K. before you consider people not to be immigrants?

Oh, he has. Second generation shouldn't be entitled to healthcare, education, housing...

But, presumably, third generation would be.

So somebody whose grandparents arrived here as babes-in-arms would be OK...

My dad was Irish so I guess I only get the N and half the H of the NHS although I suspect that Del Mar would think of him as the "right" type of immigrant for whatever reason

[Countdown]

amusingduck said:

You missed the most important part, what you would do to make things fairer!

That's a tough one and (as i think I said earlier) not always 100% possible. The main one would be allocating more funds to schools in areas of high deprivation. There are various other things I would do but they would be too right-wing for NP&E

[Alpinestars]

TooMany2cvs said:

Alpinestars said:

You’ve still not answered the question of how many generations in the U.K. before you consider people not to be immigrants?

Oh, he has. Second generation shouldn't be entitled to healthcare, education, housing...

But, presumably, third generation would be.

So somebody whose grandparents arrived here as babes-in-arms would be OK...

I’m not sure that would be his view. But would be good to hear what it is.

[amusingduck]

Countdown said:

amusingduck said:

You missed the most important part, what you would do to make things fairer!

That's a tough one and (as i think I said earlier) not always 100% possible. The main one would be allocating more funds to schools in areas of high deprivation. There are various other things I would do but they would be too right-wing for NP&E

Too right wing for NP&E?!

[TooMany2cvs]

Alpinestars said:

I’m not sure that would be his view. But would be good to hear what it is.

Oooh, you think he'd also be ruling out people whose grandparents were Johnny Foreigner?

Would it need to be all of them, or is there an acceptable number of British grandparents that cancels out the dilution? One, two, three?

Perhaps some kind of formalised test for those with two foreign grandparents? Some kind of legal "mixed-blood" test?