Take-up of MMR vaccine falls for fourth year in a row.
Discussion
It's not something new. I was looking through some old papers for some stuff, and came across a story in 1904 of someone who refused their 2 year old a vaccine. They got fined, and in addition had to pay the court fees.
And Jasandjules is an idiot, and doesn't seem to understand cherry picking data for something that might not happen immediately is not scientific. Plus with the uptake it will help protect them even if a smaller number don't take it. Until they pass tipping point. Weirdly enough that tetanus person didn't seem to care about doing life saving health care once their kid had been infected. Yet where is the evidence that it helped? Far more people die in hospital... surely that is evidence to not take sick people to hospital as it's all a massive fraud to keep the companies making money?!?
And Jasandjules is an idiot, and doesn't seem to understand cherry picking data for something that might not happen immediately is not scientific. Plus with the uptake it will help protect them even if a smaller number don't take it. Until they pass tipping point. Weirdly enough that tetanus person didn't seem to care about doing life saving health care once their kid had been infected. Yet where is the evidence that it helped? Far more people die in hospital... surely that is evidence to not take sick people to hospital as it's all a massive fraud to keep the companies making money?!?
shed driver said:
glazbagun said:
American kid gets Tetanus. Suffers lots. Parents still refuse vaccine.
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/09/well/oregon-chi...
$800,000? Would that be covered by health insurance, or would they refuse to pay as it could have been avoidable? The article doesn't say and I can't seem to find much else online. https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/09/well/oregon-chi...
SD.
https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/68/wr/mm6809a3.ht...
It does remind me that I should probably go visit a doxtor to see if there's anything I've missed in the last 15 years since my last visit.
Jasandjules said:
Last time there was a discussion on this matter I discovered my plumber was correct and my education was not. Now I am looking into matters much deeper before agreeing to something which I previously "knew".
And that means we have established that vaccines did not hugely reduce disease, they declined with sanitation, sewers etc so plumbers saved millions of lives (as my plumber claimed) not vaccines and the rates were down long before vaccines came onto the scene. Now, my education said millions died then vaccines came along and it was an instant reduction which I know now to be untrue as the massive reductions took place beforehand. So it is necessary to investigate everything before making a decision.
I’m just going to leave this here. It tells one pretty much everything one needs to know about education levels, ability to absorb and understand data, and competency of research. And that means we have established that vaccines did not hugely reduce disease, they declined with sanitation, sewers etc so plumbers saved millions of lives (as my plumber claimed) not vaccines and the rates were down long before vaccines came onto the scene. Now, my education said millions died then vaccines came along and it was an instant reduction which I know now to be untrue as the massive reductions took place beforehand. So it is necessary to investigate everything before making a decision.
You wouldn’t argue with a Freeman of the Land so why argue with this tosh?
Vanden Saab said:
TTwiggy said:
Vanden Saab said:
How many of you have had a tetanus booster in the last 10 years?
How many children do you think are posting on here?And since when was tetanus contagious?
shed driver said:
glazbagun said:
American kid gets Tetanus. Suffers lots. Parents still refuse vaccine.
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/09/well/oregon-chi...
$800,000? Would that be covered by health insurance, or would they refuse to pay as it could have been avoidable? The article doesn't say and I can't seem to find much else online. https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/09/well/oregon-chi...
SD.
Greg66 said:
I’m just going to leave this here. It tells one pretty much everything one needs to know about education levels, ability to absorb and understand data, and competency of research.
I know, impressive once you look into it. Looked at the ONS historical data for measles mortality?Of course you have, which means you know that the rates were down long before vaccines came along - which is what I said is it not?
I must assume you are a doctor given your comments absent facts and evidence. We also know that MMR rates have reduced over the last 5-6 years correct? Which also means that of course measles rates have sky rocketed during that period right? Because we know we are below the 95% which is "needed". Now what does the data say?
hairykrishna said:
I quite like this graph from Wikipedia;
Measles vaccine licenced in the US in 1963.
Very similar data in the UK: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/measles...Measles vaccine licenced in the US in 1963.
The Single measles vaccination was introduced in 1968, but uptake was poor - only about 25-50%. However, it cut the number of infections almost by 75%.
In 1988 MMR was introduced in the UK, and had a much higher uptake rate. Within just a few years, cases had dropped by 95% from the measles only vaccine rate (over 99% lower from pre-vaccination rates).
Mortality is low, as you would expect with current medical technology. Death was always quite rare with measles when supportive care was available. However, the increase in survival hides the long term disability which can result. Unfortunately, statistics on disability are generally not maintained by governments, hence this is very much a hidden problem.
However, prior to vaccination for measles, the estimate was that measles alone was responsible for 5-10% of childhood acquired deafness.
Jasandjules said:
Greg66 said:
I’m just going to leave this here. It tells one pretty much everything one needs to know about education levels, ability to absorb and understand data, and competency of research.
I know, impressive once you look into it. Looked at the ONS historical data for measles mortality?Of course you have, which means you know that the rates were down long before vaccines came along - which is what I said is it not?
I must assume you are a doctor given your comments absent facts and evidence. We also know that MMR rates have reduced over the last 5-6 years correct? Which also means that of course measles rates have sky rocketed during that period right? Because we know we are below the 95% which is "needed". Now what does the data say?
You’ve shown that (a) you didn’t understand what you were taught; (b) you wrongly thought that you did and clung some misguided beliefs; (c) you’re gullible enough to believe something your plumber tells you; (d) you lack the capacity to test either your own beliefs or what your plumber told you against empirical data.
Well done.
Ps. It’s not the mortality rate you should be looking at. It’s the infection rate. These diseases aren’t usually fatal without some underlying weakness to latch onto. They can have long term life changing effects though.
Pps if your plumber is right then the UK didn’t get clean water until about 1955 according to the measles figures. Amazing how few people knew that, right?
I know we live in the internet age where everyone is an expert because google and they can type their opinion on a screen and find someone who agrees with them, but you’re not.
I must have missed the thread where you said that homeopathy cured your dog. I’d very much like to hear about that if you have time.
Jasandjules said:
I know, impressive once you look into it. Looked at the ONS historical data for measles mortality?
Of course you have, which means you know that the rates were down long before vaccines came along - which is what I said is it not?
I must assume you are a doctor given your comments absent facts and evidence. We also know that MMR rates have reduced over the last 5-6 years correct? Which also means that of course measles rates have sky rocketed during that period right? Because we know we are below the 95% which is "needed". Now what does the data say?
The data says the rates have increased sharply from 2001-13. Didn’t your plumber tell you that?Of course you have, which means you know that the rates were down long before vaccines came along - which is what I said is it not?
I must assume you are a doctor given your comments absent facts and evidence. We also know that MMR rates have reduced over the last 5-6 years correct? Which also means that of course measles rates have sky rocketed during that period right? Because we know we are below the 95% which is "needed". Now what does the data say?
It is truly a sad day for humanity when people begin to trust utter utter horses
t they read on the internet over the advice of doctors and scientists, especially when that advice is attempting to help save the lives of their own children.
When did people become so stupid?
When did they begin to think they knew better than someone who hasspent years of their life studying something?
You seriously think you know better than thousands of scientists and doctors? Well guess what, you fking don’t.
Not vaccinating children doesn’t just negatively affect your own children. It should be mandatory. End of.
Like someone said earlier, this is the sort of homeopathic hippy dippy free-thinking organic alternative vegan bullst that killed Steve Jobs.
“In spite of pleas from family, friends, and colleagues, he tried to cure himself through acupuncture sessions, drinking special fruit juices, visiting "spiritualists" and using other treatments he found on the internet.“
t they read on the internet over the advice of doctors and scientists, especially when that advice is attempting to help save the lives of their own children.When did people become so stupid?
When did they begin to think they knew better than someone who hasspent years of their life studying something?
You seriously think you know better than thousands of scientists and doctors? Well guess what, you f
king don’t.Not vaccinating children doesn’t just negatively affect your own children. It should be mandatory. End of.
Like someone said earlier, this is the sort of homeopathic hippy dippy free-thinking organic alternative vegan bulls
t that killed Steve Jobs.“In spite of pleas from family, friends, and colleagues, he tried to cure himself through acupuncture sessions, drinking special fruit juices, visiting "spiritualists" and using other treatments he found on the internet.“
Lord Marylebone said:
It is truly a sad day for humanity when people begin to trust utter utter horsest they read on the internet over the advice of doctors and scientists, especially when that advice is attempting to help save the lives of their own children.
When did people become so stupid?
When did they begin to think they knew better than someone who hasspent years of their life studying something?
You seriously think you know better than thousands of scientists and doctors? Well guess what, you fking don’t.
Not vaccinating children doesn’t just negatively affect your own children. It should be mandatory. End of.
Like someone said earlier, this is the sort of homeopathic hippy dippy free-thinking organic alternative vegan bullst that killed Steve Jobs.
“In spite of pleas from family, friends, and colleagues, he tried to cure himself through acupuncture sessions, drinking special fruit juices, visiting "spiritualists" and using other treatments he found on the internet.“
while i agree with you 100% i find the bit in bold quite ironic ,given the comment earlier in the thread lumping in people sceptical of catastrophic anthropogenic global warming with anti vaxxers ,when the group in bold are the most supportive of that narrative of any group of lay people on the planet.t they read on the internet over the advice of doctors and scientists, especially when that advice is attempting to help save the lives of their own children.When did people become so stupid?
When did they begin to think they knew better than someone who hasspent years of their life studying something?
You seriously think you know better than thousands of scientists and doctors? Well guess what, you f
king don’t.Not vaccinating children doesn’t just negatively affect your own children. It should be mandatory. End of.
Like someone said earlier, this is the sort of homeopathic hippy dippy free-thinking organic alternative vegan bulls
t that killed Steve Jobs.“In spite of pleas from family, friends, and colleagues, he tried to cure himself through acupuncture sessions, drinking special fruit juices, visiting "spiritualists" and using other treatments he found on the internet.“
The most pressing question is what to do about people like Jasandjules who unfortunately don't have the critical thinking skills to parse the vast amount of information available these days. In this particular context, it's already hurting people.
Regulation of the internet would be a bad thing and isn't feasible anyway, so that's not really an option. Educating people in recognising bad information seems the only way but takes time and no education is totally effective.
Mocking people can work, but I suspect often makes them dig in deeper.
We know that presenting people with facts just doesn't work when their position was not based on facts in the first place. People will go to extraordinary mental lengths to hold on to an ideology and if their social group believes something, remaining connected to that group overrides almost everything. It doesn't matter how ridiculous it is.
I think that's key to a lot of these conspiracy theories. Climate change is presented as a right-wing vs left-wing thing, which is of course absurd. And anti-vaccination has been sold as a social status thing, which makes people believe they're part of something special. It's exactly the same psychology behind wanting an iPhone.
For kids and younger people there's still the potential to educate about recognising false information online and I think they'll be better at it through exposure. The problem is the generation who saw the dawn of the age of information and simply don't know what the bloody hell to do with it all.
Regulation of the internet would be a bad thing and isn't feasible anyway, so that's not really an option. Educating people in recognising bad information seems the only way but takes time and no education is totally effective.
Mocking people can work, but I suspect often makes them dig in deeper.
We know that presenting people with facts just doesn't work when their position was not based on facts in the first place. People will go to extraordinary mental lengths to hold on to an ideology and if their social group believes something, remaining connected to that group overrides almost everything. It doesn't matter how ridiculous it is.
I think that's key to a lot of these conspiracy theories. Climate change is presented as a right-wing vs left-wing thing, which is of course absurd. And anti-vaccination has been sold as a social status thing, which makes people believe they're part of something special. It's exactly the same psychology behind wanting an iPhone.
For kids and younger people there's still the potential to educate about recognising false information online and I think they'll be better at it through exposure. The problem is the generation who saw the dawn of the age of information and simply don't know what the bloody hell to do with it all.
hairykrishna said:
I quite like this graph from Wikipedia;
.
Wiki and a cherry picked date range, I wonder why. .
What about this:
Extending the data set shows a lot more. The data set can be replicated from the ONS data.
I can appreciate that cognitive dissonance is rife but there is a fair bit of info out there once you start looking for it.
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