The people's vote
Discussion
irocfan said:
Just do a Google search there seems to be more of it about than I thought
Would that be your reason to vote Brexit again. Or would you look at what Brexit will actually end up being.Believe it or not there is abuse from leave voters but we don't need to go down that road unless someone feels they would vote remain because of something someone said on a message board.
There is an assumption out there that any People's Vote would win and we will be in some ridiculous 'best of three' charade.
What if it galvanised opinion the opposite way, and a stronger Leave vote prevailed?
Conversely, if Leave is such a good idea, what do Leave have to fear?
What exactly is wrong with ratifying the terms of the exit and proving that it really is the will of hte people, with hard factual terms on the table?
It is important to put Leave in context, that nobody has ever done it before and, for all the simplistic shouts of "do you want to just keep voting until you get what you want?", a second, ratifying referendum could never have been on the cards at the outset because the EU
27 would just hardball us into the worst possible deal from the off, knowing that any secondary referendum would likely force Remain. It wouldn't exactly be the best poker face to play, no?
What if it galvanised opinion the opposite way, and a stronger Leave vote prevailed?
Conversely, if Leave is such a good idea, what do Leave have to fear?
What exactly is wrong with ratifying the terms of the exit and proving that it really is the will of hte people, with hard factual terms on the table?
It is important to put Leave in context, that nobody has ever done it before and, for all the simplistic shouts of "do you want to just keep voting until you get what you want?", a second, ratifying referendum could never have been on the cards at the outset because the EU
27 would just hardball us into the worst possible deal from the off, knowing that any secondary referendum would likely force Remain. It wouldn't exactly be the best poker face to play, no?
Thank you RTB. This one of the best posts on Brexit. Perhaps those of a Remain disposition might care to offer an opinion.
Russian Troll Bot said:
The entire strategy of this People's vote seems to be let's try again, we will win this time, then the matter will be sorted. The vote to leave was the largest single mandate in British history, and a large part of why they won was people feeling ignored by the government and the elites. If we overturn the result, how can we expect people to ever trust the democratic process again? How will ignoring the wishes of a group who felt they were ignored help them? We were told in no uncertain terms that this was a once in a generation decision and the results would be implemented. Every argument they put forward is illogical:
People have the right to change their minds. If there really has been such a sudden shift in 2 years then we will need to keep holding bi-annual referendums.
Those who weren't 18 at the time didn't get a say in their future - what about those who will be under 18 for the next vote?
We deserve a vote on the final deal - if we decide to Remain, we will have to have another vote on the terms the EU offer us to rejoin.
It's only advisory anyway - if that is true then the second vote will be as well.
If you're so confident of winning, why are you scared of a second vote - if you're so confident of winning the second vote, then let's have a third right after. If you're so confident, you'll win that as well.
Most of the voters have died off - in that case, let's ban the elderly and terminally ill people from voting in elections. They won't be around to see the results anyway.
People are better informed - all I see is Project Fear 1.0 being replaced by Project Fear 2.0. Predictions of an instant Armageddon were proven wrong, now we are told with a straight face about such things as the RAF delivering supplies, civil disorder, lack of sandwiches, super STDs and more chance of being hit by asteroids (all of which are genuine no-deal claims)
People didn't know what they were voting for - what type of Remain did people vote for? One that keeps the UK's current trade deals? One that allows us future re-negotiation? One with the option to join the Euro? One that keeps our veto? One that makes us part of the Schengen agreement?
Vote Leave broke the law - odd how people are so easily mislead that a misfiled spending return which was done on the advice of the Electoral Commission was enough to decidedly swing the vote. Yet a £9 million taxpayer-funded leaflet campaign, the PM, Chancellor and Leader of the Opposition, the EU, then-President of the USA, almost every politician and media outlet, the Civil Service, the Bank of England and countless celebrities and academics were unable to do so.
Finally, given that Remain have done nothing but attempt to undermine and overturn the result since day 1, why should they expect people to respect the outcome if it does go their way?
People have the right to change their minds. If there really has been such a sudden shift in 2 years then we will need to keep holding bi-annual referendums.
Those who weren't 18 at the time didn't get a say in their future - what about those who will be under 18 for the next vote?
We deserve a vote on the final deal - if we decide to Remain, we will have to have another vote on the terms the EU offer us to rejoin.
It's only advisory anyway - if that is true then the second vote will be as well.
If you're so confident of winning, why are you scared of a second vote - if you're so confident of winning the second vote, then let's have a third right after. If you're so confident, you'll win that as well.
Most of the voters have died off - in that case, let's ban the elderly and terminally ill people from voting in elections. They won't be around to see the results anyway.
People are better informed - all I see is Project Fear 1.0 being replaced by Project Fear 2.0. Predictions of an instant Armageddon were proven wrong, now we are told with a straight face about such things as the RAF delivering supplies, civil disorder, lack of sandwiches, super STDs and more chance of being hit by asteroids (all of which are genuine no-deal claims)
People didn't know what they were voting for - what type of Remain did people vote for? One that keeps the UK's current trade deals? One that allows us future re-negotiation? One with the option to join the Euro? One that keeps our veto? One that makes us part of the Schengen agreement?
Vote Leave broke the law - odd how people are so easily mislead that a misfiled spending return which was done on the advice of the Electoral Commission was enough to decidedly swing the vote. Yet a £9 million taxpayer-funded leaflet campaign, the PM, Chancellor and Leader of the Opposition, the EU, then-President of the USA, almost every politician and media outlet, the Civil Service, the Bank of England and countless celebrities and academics were unable to do so.
Finally, given that Remain have done nothing but attempt to undermine and overturn the result since day 1, why should they expect people to respect the outcome if it does go their way?
Ghibli said:
Bullett said:
Having spent the last 2 year being told that Brexiters are all stupid racist idiots who don't understand is not really going to change anyone's mind.
You never know, some people might look and see what Brexit actually is is now instead of thinking that people are calling them stupid racists.
PurpleTurtle said:
What exactly is wrong with ratifying the terms of the exit and proving that it really is the will of hte people, with hard factual terms on the table?
And when do you think those terms will be on the table? A minute to midnight is my guess.As far as I remember, 'leave' meant just that - and by 'just' I mean simply leave without caveat. Anything agreed with the EU that gives us some benefit is an addition to what was voted for rather than being the start point for leaving; no one mentioned leave under x, y and z conditions and now we should re-consider because it is a harder exit that we thought.
We already voted on the 'worst case scenario', or at least that's my perception of the vote.
dromond said:
Your irony and twisting is in a universe of its own, nobody was mentioning 'stupid racists' at all until guess what?...
you did, yes that's correct...you!. So what are you going to twist to get out of that one?, you wrote it, you brought it up. Once again poor choice of rhetoric from the master of rhetorical poorness.
I see RTB's post hasn't inspired much comment from you either, a bit out of your depth with that one eh.
How wrong could you be.you did, yes that's correct...you!. So what are you going to twist to get out of that one?, you wrote it, you brought it up. Once again poor choice of rhetoric from the master of rhetorical poorness.
I see RTB's post hasn't inspired much comment from you either, a bit out of your depth with that one eh.
Who is twisting?
Edit: just to say thanks for proving my point about people saying they are being called a racist when they are clearly not.
I won't expect an apology.
Edited by anonymous-user on Tuesday 25th September 17:01
alfaspecial said:
Thank you RTB. This one of the best posts on Brexit. Perhaps those of a Remain disposition might care to offer an opinion.
As a remainer myself, I've already posted (on page 2) to say that we shouldn't have a peoples vote. The original vote was to leave regardless of whether people understood what that meant or not and regardless of whether the end result will see the UK better or worse off. I for one accept that in democracy, you don't always get what you want but it's a fair system. I think having any new vote now would do more damage. Russian Troll Bot said:
The entire strategy of this People's vote seems to be let's try again, we will win this time, then the matter will be sorted. The vote to leave was the largest single mandate in British history, and a large part of why they won was people feeling ignored by the government and the elites. If we overturn the result, how can we expect people to ever trust the democratic process again? How will ignoring the wishes of a group who felt they were ignored help them? We were told in no uncertain terms that this was a once in a generation decision and the results would be implemented. Every argument they put forward is illogical:
People have the right to change their minds. If there really has been such a sudden shift in 2 years then we will need to keep holding bi-annual referendums.
Those who weren't 18 at the time didn't get a say in their future - what about those who will be under 18 for the next vote?
We deserve a vote on the final deal - if we decide to Remain, we will have to have another vote on the terms the EU offer us to rejoin.
It's only advisory anyway - if that is true then the second vote will be as well.
If you're so confident of winning, why are you scared of a second vote - if you're so confident of winning the second vote, then let's have a third right after. If you're so confident, you'll win that as well.
Most of the voters have died off - in that case, let's ban the elderly and terminally ill people from voting in elections. They won't be around to see the results anyway.
People are better informed - all I see is Project Fear 1.0 being replaced by Project Fear 2.0. Predictions of an instant Armageddon were proven wrong, now we are told with a straight face about such things as the RAF delivering supplies, civil disorder, lack of sandwiches, super STDs and more chance of being hit by asteroids (all of which are genuine no-deal claims)
People didn't know what they were voting for - what type of Remain did people vote for? One that keeps the UK's current trade deals? One that allows us future re-negotiation? One with the option to join the Euro? One that keeps our veto? One that makes us part of the Schengen agreement?
Vote Leave broke the law - odd how people are so easily mislead that a misfiled spending return which was done on the advice of the Electoral Commission was enough to decidedly swing the vote. Yet a £9 million taxpayer-funded leaflet campaign, the PM, Chancellor and Leader of the Opposition, the EU, then-President of the USA, almost every politician and media outlet, the Civil Service, the Bank of England and countless celebrities and academics were unable to do so.
Finally, given that Remain have done nothing but attempt to undermine and overturn the result since day 1, why should they expect people to respect the outcome if it does go their way?
People have the right to change their minds. If there really has been such a sudden shift in 2 years then we will need to keep holding bi-annual referendums.
Those who weren't 18 at the time didn't get a say in their future - what about those who will be under 18 for the next vote?
We deserve a vote on the final deal - if we decide to Remain, we will have to have another vote on the terms the EU offer us to rejoin.
It's only advisory anyway - if that is true then the second vote will be as well.
If you're so confident of winning, why are you scared of a second vote - if you're so confident of winning the second vote, then let's have a third right after. If you're so confident, you'll win that as well.
Most of the voters have died off - in that case, let's ban the elderly and terminally ill people from voting in elections. They won't be around to see the results anyway.
People are better informed - all I see is Project Fear 1.0 being replaced by Project Fear 2.0. Predictions of an instant Armageddon were proven wrong, now we are told with a straight face about such things as the RAF delivering supplies, civil disorder, lack of sandwiches, super STDs and more chance of being hit by asteroids (all of which are genuine no-deal claims)
People didn't know what they were voting for - what type of Remain did people vote for? One that keeps the UK's current trade deals? One that allows us future re-negotiation? One with the option to join the Euro? One that keeps our veto? One that makes us part of the Schengen agreement?
Vote Leave broke the law - odd how people are so easily mislead that a misfiled spending return which was done on the advice of the Electoral Commission was enough to decidedly swing the vote. Yet a £9 million taxpayer-funded leaflet campaign, the PM, Chancellor and Leader of the Opposition, the EU, then-President of the USA, almost every politician and media outlet, the Civil Service, the Bank of England and countless celebrities and academics were unable to do so.
Finally, given that Remain have done nothing but attempt to undermine and overturn the result since day 1, why should they expect people to respect the outcome if it does go their way?
Likewise, I'd also say that those who voted to leave will have to accept whatever leaving the EU looks like (deal, no deal, good deal, bad deal) as they voted to let our politicians negotiate with the EU how this would all work. If we end up with a good deal and the UK becomes better off in the future after Brexit then great, it will have been a great success. If not then you can't say that this isn't the Brexit you voted for. you voted for whatever Brexit our government could get us, good or bad.
jjlynn27 said:
CAPP0 said:
Unfortunately I didn't see that one before I started this.
Good to see that after an initial hiccup we've actually been able to discuss it sensibly though!
I'm paid by the EU per answer, so having to wade through multiple threads is detrimental to my productivity. Good to see that after an initial hiccup we've actually been able to discuss it sensibly though!
As for this and other thread. There will be no ref2, imo.
andy_s said:
And when do you think those terms will be on the table? A minute to midnight is my guess.
As far as I remember, 'leave' meant just that - and by 'just' I mean simply leave without caveat. Anything agreed with the EU that gives us some benefit is an addition to what was voted for rather than being the start point for leaving; no one mentioned leave under x, y and z conditions and now we should re-consider because it is a harder exit that we thought.
We already voted on the 'worst case scenario', or at least that's my perception of the vote.
Hear hear. I am genuinely pissed off that this is not explained more to the usual remain voices.As far as I remember, 'leave' meant just that - and by 'just' I mean simply leave without caveat. Anything agreed with the EU that gives us some benefit is an addition to what was voted for rather than being the start point for leaving; no one mentioned leave under x, y and z conditions and now we should re-consider because it is a harder exit that we thought.
We already voted on the 'worst case scenario', or at least that's my perception of the vote.
Ghibli said:
Deptford Draylons said:
So in the example I gave you, you don't believe anyone is lazily insinuating racism ? Got it.
And that would be your reason for voting Brexit again if there were another ref.Ghibli said:
The Surveyor said:
Conversely, I voted remain but would now vote leave if there was another vote. Reason being that the way the EU have behaved during the Brexit negotiations confirmed everything that is bad about that organisation, and secondly because if the UK went back to the EU, we would have lost every last bit of credibility and would end up with a worse deal than we ever had.
Just out of curiosity, how do you think the rest of the world would see us if we left with no deal and no trade agreements.The government would say it's the will of the people. If we had another referendum and remained it would be the government who would be at fault for not producing what they thought they could offer it people.
As for the rest of the world, If we present well, the rest of the world will see a no-deal free trade UK as an opportunity IMHO. The markets will crash, life goes on, the markets will recover, life goes on, the UK prospers, life goes on, the EU will eventually collapse, life goes on, we trade freely with our European neighbours, life goes on......
The government created the mess with its election promise for the referendum, they won the election but the price they paid was Brexit. The voting public have given them a mandate, Parliament have backed that route, it's for the government to now deliver that as best the EU will allow.
The Surveyor said:
I see the outcome being similar to a high-flyer leaving one job to work for another company. We've already handed in our resignation, told the old company to shove its bureaucracy where the sun don't shine and we're off on adventures new. If we change direction and ask for our old position back on the basis we no longer have an alternative option, we'll be making the EU tea, filing and photocopying for decades.
Ghibli said:
dromond said:
Your irony and twisting is in a universe of its own, nobody was mentioning 'stupid racists' at all until guess what?...
you did, yes that's correct...you!. So what are you going to twist to get out of that one?, you wrote it, you brought it up. Once again poor choice of rhetoric from the master of rhetorical poorness.
I see RTB's post hasn't inspired much comment from you either, a bit out of your depth with that one eh.
How wrong could you be.you did, yes that's correct...you!. So what are you going to twist to get out of that one?, you wrote it, you brought it up. Once again poor choice of rhetoric from the master of rhetorical poorness.
I see RTB's post hasn't inspired much comment from you either, a bit out of your depth with that one eh.
Who is twisting?
to the questions put to you, as always its ignore what you cant answer or leave a couple of very short replies that are beyond nonsense, as in the post above.
And just to reiterate for the sake of anyone who hadn't already noticed, it was Ghibli that brought up 'stupid racists' comment
earlier in the thread.
I notice yet again no mention of RTB's post, that one really flummoxed you, a deathly hush if ever there was one.
If you are going to reply at least put some effort into it man FFS.
dromond said:
So far... just you, and Chubby Checker of course!, except you are also squirming, unable to post anything of substance in relation
to the questions put to you, as always its ignore what you cant answer or leave a couple of very short replies that are beyond nonsense, as in the post above.
And just to reiterate for the sake of anyone who hadn't already noticed, it was Ghibli that brought up 'stupid racists' comment
earlier in the thread.
I notice yet again no mention of RTB's post, that one really flummoxed you, a deathly hush if ever there was one.
If you are going to reply at least put some effort into it man FFS.
I think you will find Bullett brought up stupid racists.to the questions put to you, as always its ignore what you cant answer or leave a couple of very short replies that are beyond nonsense, as in the post above.
And just to reiterate for the sake of anyone who hadn't already noticed, it was Ghibli that brought up 'stupid racists' comment
earlier in the thread.
I notice yet again no mention of RTB's post, that one really flummoxed you, a deathly hush if ever there was one.
If you are going to reply at least put some effort into it man FFS.
Please carry on though I'm enjoying watching you twisting
Russian Troll Bot said:
The entire strategy of this People's vote seems to be let's try again, we will win this time, then the matter will be sorted. The vote to leave was the largest single mandate in British history, and a large part of why they won was people feeling ignored by the government and the elites. If we overturn the result, how can we expect people to ever trust the democratic process again? How will ignoring the wishes of a group who felt they were ignored help them? We were told in no uncertain terms that this was a once in a generation decision and the results would be implemented. Every argument they put forward is illogical:
People have the right to change their minds. If there really has been such a sudden shift in 2 years then we will need to keep holding bi-annual referendums.
Those who weren't 18 at the time didn't get a say in their future - what about those who will be under 18 for the next vote?
We deserve a vote on the final deal - if we decide to Remain, we will have to have another vote on the terms the EU offer us to rejoin.
It's only advisory anyway - if that is true then the second vote will be as well.
If you're so confident of winning, why are you scared of a second vote - if you're so confident of winning the second vote, then let's have a third right after. If you're so confident, you'll win that as well.
Most of the voters have died off - in that case, let's ban the elderly and terminally ill people from voting in elections. They won't be around to see the results anyway.
People are better informed - all I see is Project Fear 1.0 being replaced by Project Fear 2.0. Predictions of an instant Armageddon were proven wrong, now we are told with a straight face about such things as the RAF delivering supplies, civil disorder, lack of sandwiches, super STDs and more chance of being hit by asteroids (all of which are genuine no-deal claims)
People didn't know what they were voting for - what type of Remain did people vote for? One that keeps the UK's current trade deals? One that allows us future re-negotiation? One with the option to join the Euro? One that keeps our veto? One that makes us part of the Schengen agreement?
Vote Leave broke the law - odd how people are so easily mislead that a misfiled spending return which was done on the advice of the Electoral Commission was enough to decidedly swing the vote. Yet a £9 million taxpayer-funded leaflet campaign, the PM, Chancellor and Leader of the Opposition, the EU, then-President of the USA, almost every politician and media outlet, the Civil Service, the Bank of England and countless celebrities and academics were unable to do so.
Finally, given that Remain have done nothing but attempt to undermine and overturn the result since day 1, why should they expect people to respect the outcome if it does go their way?
Spot on.People have the right to change their minds. If there really has been such a sudden shift in 2 years then we will need to keep holding bi-annual referendums.
Those who weren't 18 at the time didn't get a say in their future - what about those who will be under 18 for the next vote?
We deserve a vote on the final deal - if we decide to Remain, we will have to have another vote on the terms the EU offer us to rejoin.
It's only advisory anyway - if that is true then the second vote will be as well.
If you're so confident of winning, why are you scared of a second vote - if you're so confident of winning the second vote, then let's have a third right after. If you're so confident, you'll win that as well.
Most of the voters have died off - in that case, let's ban the elderly and terminally ill people from voting in elections. They won't be around to see the results anyway.
People are better informed - all I see is Project Fear 1.0 being replaced by Project Fear 2.0. Predictions of an instant Armageddon were proven wrong, now we are told with a straight face about such things as the RAF delivering supplies, civil disorder, lack of sandwiches, super STDs and more chance of being hit by asteroids (all of which are genuine no-deal claims)
People didn't know what they were voting for - what type of Remain did people vote for? One that keeps the UK's current trade deals? One that allows us future re-negotiation? One with the option to join the Euro? One that keeps our veto? One that makes us part of the Schengen agreement?
Vote Leave broke the law - odd how people are so easily mislead that a misfiled spending return which was done on the advice of the Electoral Commission was enough to decidedly swing the vote. Yet a £9 million taxpayer-funded leaflet campaign, the PM, Chancellor and Leader of the Opposition, the EU, then-President of the USA, almost every politician and media outlet, the Civil Service, the Bank of England and countless celebrities and academics were unable to do so.
Finally, given that Remain have done nothing but attempt to undermine and overturn the result since day 1, why should they expect people to respect the outcome if it does go their way?
Ghibli said:
dromond said:
So far... just you, and Chubby Checker of course!, except you are also squirming, unable to post anything of substance in relation
to the questions put to you, as always its ignore what you cant answer or leave a couple of very short replies that are beyond nonsense, as in the post above.
And just to reiterate for the sake of anyone who hadn't already noticed, it was Ghibli that brought up 'stupid racists' comment
earlier in the thread.
I notice yet again no mention of RTB's post, that one really flummoxed you, a deathly hush if ever there was one.
If you are going to reply at least put some effort into it man FFS.
I think you will find Bullett brought up stupid racists.to the questions put to you, as always its ignore what you cant answer or leave a couple of very short replies that are beyond nonsense, as in the post above.
And just to reiterate for the sake of anyone who hadn't already noticed, it was Ghibli that brought up 'stupid racists' comment
earlier in the thread.
I notice yet again no mention of RTB's post, that one really flummoxed you, a deathly hush if ever there was one.
If you are going to reply at least put some effort into it man FFS.
Please carry on though I'm enjoying watching you twisting
.Ok, apart from the fact that you are unequivocally not watching me do anything due to the fact there is no camera
relaying anything from me to you, lets hear you finally make a comment on RTB's post, you have now been asked
about it several times which you have decided to ignore completely, I will assume another post from you whereby you
blank it yet again or now completely ignore my reply will be confirmation of the earlier comment I made that its sheer transcendence has put you a prodigious degree of fathoms out of your depth.
toon10 said:
As a remainer myself, I've already posted (on page 2) to say that we shouldn't have a peoples vote. The original vote was to leave regardless of whether people understood what that meant or not and regardless of whether the end result will see the UK better or worse off. I for one accept that in democracy, you don't always get what you want but it's a fair system. I think having any new vote now would do more damage.
Likewise, I'd also say that those who voted to leave will have to accept whatever leaving the EU looks like (deal, no deal, good deal, bad deal) as they voted to let our politicians negotiate with the EU how this would all work. If we end up with a good deal and the UK becomes better off in the future after Brexit then great, it will have been a great success. If not then you can't say that this isn't the Brexit you voted for. you voted for whatever Brexit our government could get us, good or bad.
Good post. Like you I voted to remain but it was very close and came down to who was top of the ballot paper tbh such was my indecision. Democracy has to be maintained and there cannot be another vote/ referendum on it. Those calling for another vote are undemocratic just like the EU. I wish I’d voted Leave now. Likewise, I'd also say that those who voted to leave will have to accept whatever leaving the EU looks like (deal, no deal, good deal, bad deal) as they voted to let our politicians negotiate with the EU how this would all work. If we end up with a good deal and the UK becomes better off in the future after Brexit then great, it will have been a great success. If not then you can't say that this isn't the Brexit you voted for. you voted for whatever Brexit our government could get us, good or bad.
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