The people's vote
Discussion
B'stard Child said:
Russian Troll Bot said:
The entire strategy of this People's vote seems to be let's try again, we will win this time, then the matter will be sorted.
<snip>
Finally, given that Remain have done nothing but attempt to undermine and overturn the result since day 1, why should they expect people to respect the outcome if it does go their way?
Excellent Post - but I can't see anyone calling for "extra democracy" reading it <snip>
Finally, given that Remain have done nothing but attempt to undermine and overturn the result since day 1, why should they expect people to respect the outcome if it does go their way?
99dndd said:
CAPP0 said:
I really don't want to add yet another Brexit thread, but unfortunately in the main one, every time someone asks a question, it gets buried in half a dozen pages of the usual suspects waving their handbags at each other. I've asked this twice in there and both times it gets swamped and therefore ignored.
My question is:
This People's Vote thing (or 2nd referendum, or whatever it's being called today: insummary, the resuest to hold a vote on the UK's exit deal):
- if this went ahead, and
- if the result was binding, rather than just being an opinion poll (and what would be the point of that anyway?) and
- if, as seems likely, the People voted No to the proposed deal,
would we not then just simply crash out with no deal anyway? Because there surely wouldn't be time for another round of negotiations, plus presumably yet another People's Vote on the outcome of that. And at present there is still no stated process for aborting Article 50. On that basis, whether you're a leaver or a remainer, is the People's Vote thing not just a massive waste of everyone's time and money with no potentially-useful outcome whatsoever?
Is it just a case of people trying to find yet another way to demonstrate their disapproval of Brexit?
I can't fathom the answer to this.
If the one deal brokered between the UK and the EU was rejected, there would not be another. That would be a no-deal* Brexit.My question is:
This People's Vote thing (or 2nd referendum, or whatever it's being called today: insummary, the resuest to hold a vote on the UK's exit deal):
- if this went ahead, and
- if the result was binding, rather than just being an opinion poll (and what would be the point of that anyway?) and
- if, as seems likely, the People voted No to the proposed deal,
would we not then just simply crash out with no deal anyway? Because there surely wouldn't be time for another round of negotiations, plus presumably yet another People's Vote on the outcome of that. And at present there is still no stated process for aborting Article 50. On that basis, whether you're a leaver or a remainer, is the People's Vote thing not just a massive waste of everyone's time and money with no potentially-useful outcome whatsoever?
Is it just a case of people trying to find yet another way to demonstrate their disapproval of Brexit?
I can't fathom the answer to this.
- technically a WTO deal Brexit but y'know.
B'stard Child said:
Excellent Post - but I can't see anyone calling for "extra democracy" reading it
They've missed a chance there, really. Surely the last referendum was "extra democracy", as until that point we hadn't been given a say for 40-odd years.
That would make the 'Peoples' vote "super duper democracy", at the very least
CAPP0 said:
This is where I can't understand it. Just about everyone seems to think that a no-deal exit is the worst option, but if the People vote against any deal which is agreed, they get no-deal anyway? So really what is the rationale behind suggesting the vote?
All I can imagine is that it either a) offers a way to stay in that doesn't appear to disregard the first vote quite as much as it would by Parliament simply stating 'this is a bad idea, we're staying in'. Or it b) let's Government/Parliament wash their hands of any awfulness because 'we gave you two chances and you still chose to shoot yourselves in the face'.dromond said:
There would be absolute Anarchy in the UK if it was overturned, even remain voters I speak to agree that it would be a disastrous
move. I think the chance of the vote being overturned is miniscule to zero anyway.
I really hope you are right on this. Robert Peston, who occasionally gets it right, thinks there is above a 50:50 chance of a second referendum now. Although we don't know the wording, I have a nasty feeling it will be something like 'vote leave with no deal, or vote for the government's latest fudge', the latter being a 'not quite' Brexit.move. I think the chance of the vote being overturned is miniscule to zero anyway.
The question should arise that if a 2nd referendum were to deliver a remain result, then what is to stop calls for yet another one after that to overturn the previous in a never ending and pointless process?
A democratic vote should have the result acted up on, and then a time period of delivering the result of the vote before a new vote for change can be called.
Otherwise what is the point of it all?
Gladly though I think the PM is wise to the fact of what constitutes democracy and no 2nd referendum will be offered.
A democratic vote should have the result acted up on, and then a time period of delivering the result of the vote before a new vote for change can be called.
Otherwise what is the point of it all?
Gladly though I think the PM is wise to the fact of what constitutes democracy and no 2nd referendum will be offered.
dromond said:
Ghibli said:
You never know, some people might look and see what Brexit actually is is now instead of thinking that people are calling them stupid racists.
You have just manipulated those words to make it appear that being called 'stupid racists' is only a thought in peoples heads, whereasthe actual truth is that people have been called stupid racists because they voted leave. Just another example of the poor rhetoric that is so
apparent in your posts, you might want to take a look at Russian Troll Bot's post to see how logical, informed, and intelligent debate is
constructed, it might even help you with the grammar mistakes you make like the one above, seeing that you are mentioning stupidity.
As expected RTB's post has been ignored by the normally vociferous remainers of the board, I wonder why that would be
.This forum consists of lots of people saying they are being bullied and are being called thick racists.
On the first day, I voted to remain.
On the second day, I sulked for the whole day.
On the third day, I accepted and considered my new horizon.
On the fourth day, I listened to the childishness.
On the fifth day, I shook my head.
On the sixth day, I understood that hope was my only hope.
On the seventh day,.......................................well, one way or another, s
t happens.
Forgot to say that on the afternoon of the sixth day, I resorted to dreaming of a Eurolotto win.
On the second day, I sulked for the whole day.
On the third day, I accepted and considered my new horizon.
On the fourth day, I listened to the childishness.
On the fifth day, I shook my head.
On the sixth day, I understood that hope was my only hope.
On the seventh day,.......................................well, one way or another, s
t happens.Forgot to say that on the afternoon of the sixth day, I resorted to dreaming of a Eurolotto win.
Biker 1 said:
I really hope you are right on this. Robert Peston, who occasionally gets it right, thinks there is above a 50:50 chance of a second referendum now. Although we don't know the wording, I have a nasty feeling it will be something like 'vote leave with no deal, or vote for the government's latest fudge', the latter being a 'not quite' Brexit.
Me being cynical would imagine a vote1) Remain in EU
2) Hard Brexit
3) Leave with EU-UK deal
Thus splitting the Leave 2 ways and allowing Remain to win.
I'd imagine they'd do that, but probably even split the leave vote more ways.
I particularly like the Alistair Campbell approach some are taking - that we didn't know what we were voting for last time. Yeah, a majority vote leave despite not knowing what would be negotiated, if anything and you think that means we should vote again?!
I particularly like the Alistair Campbell approach some are taking - that we didn't know what we were voting for last time. Yeah, a majority vote leave despite not knowing what would be negotiated, if anything and you think that means we should vote again?!
Always strikes me as soon as you have to put 'Peoples' in front of anything, it's got sod-all to do with the majority of the people - as in People's Republic of China, Democratic People's Republic of Korea etc...Like a red flag warning that this is being driven by the political classes who know best for the 'people'.
tvrolet said:
Always strikes me as soon as you have to put 'Peoples' in front of anything, it's got sod-all to do with the majority of the people - as in People's Republic of China, Democratic People's Republic of Korea etc...Like a red flag warning that this is being driven by the political classes who know best for the 'people'.
CAPP0 said:
And at present there is still no stated process for aborting Article 50.
I don't think there needs to be. If I recall the guy who drafted the original text said a process wasn't needed.Let's face it, if we said "we wish to withdraw our Article 50 submission" the EU would bluster and then accept as they would
1) have the high ground
2) it would go towards their proof that their grand plan is right after all
3) given them huge leverage over the UK in future negotiations
4) massage some pretty big EU and state egos
Not only there are enough Brexit threads, but you also have a specific thread on People's Vote.
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
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