Italy defies it's Economy Minister...

[Digga]

Tryke3 said:

Lucas Ayde said:

Just to reinforce an earlier point about bailouts being for the benefit of foreign banks, usually French and German, not the EU country being bailed:

https://wolfstreet.com/2018/10/30/france-worried-a...

"France was just served with a stark reminder of an inconvenient truth: €277 billion of Italian government debt — the equivalent of 14% of French GDP — is owed to French banks"

"German lenders have €79 billion worth of exposure to Italian debt and Spanish lenders, €69 billion. In other words, taken together, the financial sectors of the largest, second largest and fourth largest economies in the Eurozone — Germany, France and Spain — hold over €415 billion of Italian debt on their balance sheets."

Will they push the government of Italy into accepting a 'bailout' with various conditions attached like they did with Ireland and Greece? Should be interesting if Italy calls their bluff. They are the third biggest Eurozone economy after all

Retarded post because 1. Theres 60 million people who dont want to starve to death

Which is a retarded response, because there are already EU citizens in Greece going hungry.

[Kccv23highliftcam]

Digga said:

Tryke3 said:

Lucas Ayde said:

Just to reinforce an earlier point about bailouts being for the benefit of foreign banks, usually French and German, not the EU country being bailed:

https://wolfstreet.com/2018/10/30/france-worried-a...

"France was just served with a stark reminder of an inconvenient truth: €277 billion of Italian government debt — the equivalent of 14% of French GDP — is owed to French banks"

"German lenders have €79 billion worth of exposure to Italian debt and Spanish lenders, €69 billion. In other words, taken together, the financial sectors of the largest, second largest and fourth largest economies in the Eurozone — Germany, France and Spain — hold over €415 billion of Italian debt on their balance sheets."

Will they push the government of Italy into accepting a 'bailout' with various conditions attached like they did with Ireland and Greece? Should be interesting if Italy calls their bluff. They are the third biggest Eurozone economy after all

Retarded post because 1. Theres 60 million people who dont want to starve to death

Which is a retarded response, because there are already EU citizens in Greece going hungry.

Bit more than "going hungry" pharmacists have been supplying medicines until they went bust so people have died because of the measures forced by the EU

[Digga]

Kccv23highliftcam said:

Digga said:

Tryke3 said:

Lucas Ayde said:

Just to reinforce an earlier point about bailouts being for the benefit of foreign banks, usually French and German, not the EU country being bailed:

https://wolfstreet.com/2018/10/30/france-worried-a...

"France was just served with a stark reminder of an inconvenient truth: €277 billion of Italian government debt — the equivalent of 14% of French GDP — is owed to French banks"

"German lenders have €79 billion worth of exposure to Italian debt and Spanish lenders, €69 billion. In other words, taken together, the financial sectors of the largest, second largest and fourth largest economies in the Eurozone — Germany, France and Spain — hold over €415 billion of Italian debt on their balance sheets."

Will they push the government of Italy into accepting a 'bailout' with various conditions attached like they did with Ireland and Greece? Should be interesting if Italy calls their bluff. They are the third biggest Eurozone economy after all

Retarded post because 1. Theres 60 million people who dont want to starve to death

Which is a retarded response, because there are already EU citizens in Greece going hungry.

Bit more than "going hungry" pharmacists have been supplying medicines until they went bust so people have died because of the measures forced by the EU

Yes, apologies, You are right. It runs far deeper and wider than mere food shortages.

[Lucas Ayde]

Kccv23highliftcam said:

Bit more than "going hungry" pharmacists have been supplying medicines until they went bust so people have died because of the measures forced by the EU

But the big German and French banks got their money, which is the main thing.

[steve_k]

Deadline on EU threats about the Italian budget tonight,

[psi310398]

This should be fun. No sign in the Italian press that the Italian government is backing down.

[turbobloke]

TooMany2cvs said:

don'tbesilly said:

Gecko1978 said:

Brexit will hurt the UK agreed but without a deal its going to hurt countries in the EU also.

The EU care not one jot, and it seems the EU27 are going along with them.

The harm to the EU will be minimal compared to the harm to the UK.

The EU are trying to get a deal together (not that they want the UK to leave in the first place). It's the hard-core head-banging right-wing of the Tory party who keep wrecking the chances of anything being done - the same people who caused this whole sorry mess in the first place.

The people who caused Brexit are the artists known as the EU. They did a great job. We'd all have voted to Remain if it was obviously such a great concept being implemented to benefit lots of people across europe rather than a few politicians and their functionaries in the EU. CMD and The Boy George wouldn't have needed to spend a small fortune telling whoppers and UKIP / Farage would never have gained any traction if it was so amazing being part of the benevolent and munificent EU.

[wc98]

turbobloke said:

The people who caused Brexit are the artists known as the EU. They did a great job. We'd all have voted to Remain if it was obviously such a great concept being implemented to benefit lots of people across europe rather than a few politicians and their functionaries in the EU. CMD and The Boy George wouldn't have needed to spend a small fortune telling whoppers and UKIP / Farage would never have gained any traction if it was so amazing being part of the benevolent and munificent EU.

[turbobloke]

TooMany2cvs said:

loafer123 said:

Ironically, it did work despite all of those issues, because the country could devalue it's currency to make up for them.

Yes, and that's SUCH a sustainable long-term strategy...

Is it meant to be, and does it need to be, a long-term strategy or is it something else?

The long-term game, as per this thread, is the EU pushing more of its member states towards the exit while dreaming that the Brexit vote was a (different) bad dream.

Always remember that the EU is run by superhero genius politicians and functionaries.

Edited by turbobloke on Wednesday 14th November 09:44

[Kermit power]

wc98 said:

turbobloke said:

The people who caused Brexit are the artists known as the EU. They did a great job. We'd all have voted to Remain if it was obviously such a great concept being implemented to benefit lots of people across europe rather than a few politicians and their functionaries in the EU. CMD and The Boy George wouldn't have needed to spend a small fortune telling whoppers and UKIP / Farage would never have gained any traction if it was so amazing being part of the benevolent and munificent EU.

That's completely wrong in my opinion.

The people who caused Brexit were the UK politicians, both Labour and Tory, who for far too long decided they could ignore their core voters whilst they squabbled over the centre ground swing voters because firstly they knew they had nobody else to vote for, and secondly they could keep blaming the EU for their inaction on a range of key areas.

People didn't vote UKIP because of anything the EU actually did. They voted for UKIP because our mainstream politicians had found it very convenient to make out that the EU were the nasty people stopping them from doing what the people wanted.

[turbobloke]

Kermit power said:

wc98 said:

turbobloke said:

The people who caused Brexit are the artists known as the EU. They did a great job. We'd all have voted to Remain if it was obviously such a great concept being implemented to benefit lots of people across europe rather than a few politicians and their functionaries in the EU. CMD and The Boy George wouldn't have needed to spend a small fortune telling whoppers and UKIP / Farage would never have gained any traction if it was so amazing being part of the benevolent and munificent EU.

That's completely wrong in my opinion.

The people who caused Brexit were the UK politicians, both Labour and Tory, who for far too long decided they could ignore their core voters whilst they squabbled over the centre ground swing voters because firstly they knew they had nobody else to vote for, and secondly they could keep blaming the EU for their inaction on a range of key areas.

People didn't vote UKIP because of anything the EU actually did. They voted for UKIP because our mainstream politicians had found it very convenient to make out that the EU were the nasty people stopping them from doing what the people wanted.

That looks suspiciously like a Remain pretence that the Brexit vote wasn't about Brexit or indeed the EU...because the EU is obviously maaahvellous daahling and therefore it must have been somethng else.

Nope. It was all about remaining in, or leaving, the EU. The EU vibe was so good that sufficient people voted Leave.

Take a bow, EU - they can always keep repeating the same mistakes and watch what happens.

On that score Italy could be good for an EU giggle.

[anonymous-user]

Kermit power said:

That's completely wrong in my opinion.

The people who caused Brexit were the UK politicians, both Labour and Tory, who for far too long decided they could ignore their core voters whilst they squabbled over the centre ground swing voters because firstly they knew they had nobody else to vote for, and secondly they could keep blaming the EU for their inaction on a range of key areas.

People didn't vote UKIP because of anything the EU actually did. They voted for UKIP because our mainstream politicians had found it very convenient to make out that the EU were the nasty people stopping them from doing what the people wanted.

The UK voted to leave for hundreds of reasons, but one big one was FOM and the impact that had on the ground. That couldn't be changed without leaving the EU.

Can we get back to Italy now?

[turbobloke]

jsf said:

Kermit power said:

That's completely wrong in my opinion.

The people who caused Brexit were the UK politicians, both Labour and Tory, who for far too long decided they could ignore their core voters whilst they squabbled over the centre ground swing voters because firstly they knew they had nobody else to vote for, and secondly they could keep blaming the EU for their inaction on a range of key areas.

People didn't vote UKIP because of anything the EU actually did. They voted for UKIP because our mainstream politicians had found it very convenient to make out that the EU were the nasty people stopping them from doing what the people wanted.

The UK voted to leave for hundreds of reasons, but one big one was FOM and the impact that had on the ground. That couldn't be changed without leaving the EU.

If (if) Kp is so convinced that being in the EU brought so much disbenefit to so many people in the UK, others may be inclined to agree. What was the point of being in (for them)?

jsf said:

Can we get back to Italy now?

This is old news - published 7 hours ago and probably stale even then - so it may well be widely known that Italy has rejected the Commission's rejection.

https://www.rte.ie/news/2018/1114/1010775-italy_ec...

[Digga]

It will be exceptionally difficult to get the Italian government to back down. The Greeks were amateurs compared to the Italians when it comes to political gamesmanship and skulduggery. The EU has no alternative but to hold the line, because that is everything it stands for, but as with the UK's dissatisfaction with the immigration policies, there is no hiding from the Italian's desire to make their own way.

[Gargamel]

Digga said:

It will be exceptionally difficult to get the Italian government to back down. The Greeks were amateurs compared to the Italians when it comes to political gamesmanship and skulduggery. The EU has no alternative but to hold the line, because that is everything it stands for, but as with the UK's dissatisfaction with the immigration policies, there is no hiding from the Italian's desire to make their own way.

I think it is quite hard for the Italians to accept that they can't set their own budget, and even be a little expansionary with the money supply. Especially when both France and Germany have completed ignored the rules of the Financial Stability Pact with total immunity.

[Digga]

Gargamel said:

Digga said:

It will be exceptionally difficult to get the Italian government to back down. The Greeks were amateurs compared to the Italians when it comes to political gamesmanship and skulduggery. The EU has no alternative but to hold the line, because that is everything it stands for, but as with the UK's dissatisfaction with the immigration policies, there is no hiding from the Italian's desire to make their own way.

I think it is quite hard for the Italians to accept that they can't set their own budget, and even be a little expansionary with the money supply. Especially when both France and Germany have completed ignored the rules of the Financial Stability Pact with total immunity.

I agree completely. The hypocrisy is clear. Interestingly, with German growth stalling, in spite of exceptionally low interest rates, the argument to expand (notwithstanding current debt/GDP levels in some places like Italy) has some merit.

In many regards, the whole intractability of the problem typifies why the EU either needs significant reform or be dismantled.

[Kermit power]

jsf said:

Kermit power said:

That's completely wrong in my opinion.

The people who caused Brexit were the UK politicians, both Labour and Tory, who for far too long decided they could ignore their core voters whilst they squabbled over the centre ground swing voters because firstly they knew they had nobody else to vote for, and secondly they could keep blaming the EU for their inaction on a range of key areas.

People didn't vote UKIP because of anything the EU actually did. They voted for UKIP because our mainstream politicians had found it very convenient to make out that the EU were the nasty people stopping them from doing what the people wanted.

The UK voted to leave for hundreds of reasons, but one big one was FOM and the impact that had on the ground. That couldn't be changed without leaving the EU.

Again, I would disagree!

Any government could've declared that nobody (including British citizens) was allowed to claim benefits until they'd paid NI for a minimum qualifying period, and they could've also enforced the rules that prevent people from just moving to another EU country without being able to support themselves. Had they done that, any issues over freedom of movement would've plummeted, but of course they'd also have lost the votes of feckless layabouts who claim benefits, and hand-wringing liberals who think they should be allowed to do so. Net result? They claim it's all the fault of the EU, when in fact it's their fault because they're spineless weasels allowing our completely unsustainable benefits bill to continue indefinitely.

jsf said:

Can we get back to Italy now?

Yes, OK. I'll get the popcorn ready.

[anonymous-user]

Kermit power said:

jsf said:

Kermit power said:

That's completely wrong in my opinion.

The people who caused Brexit were the UK politicians, both Labour and Tory, who for far too long decided they could ignore their core voters whilst they squabbled over the centre ground swing voters because firstly they knew they had nobody else to vote for, and secondly they could keep blaming the EU for their inaction on a range of key areas.

People didn't vote UKIP because of anything the EU actually did. They voted for UKIP because our mainstream politicians had found it very convenient to make out that the EU were the nasty people stopping them from doing what the people wanted.

The UK voted to leave for hundreds of reasons, but one big one was FOM and the impact that had on the ground. That couldn't be changed without leaving the EU.

Again, I would disagree!

Any government could've declared that nobody (including British citizens) was allowed to claim benefits until they'd paid NI for a minimum qualifying period, and they could've also enforced the rules that prevent people from just moving to another EU country without being able to support themselves. Had they done that, any issues over freedom of movement would've plummeted, but of course they'd also have lost the votes of feckless layabouts who claim benefits, and hand-wringing liberals who think they should be allowed to do so. Net result? They claim it's all the fault of the EU, when in fact it's their fault because they're spineless weasels allowing our completely unsustainable benefits bill to continue indefinitely.

jsf said:

Can we get back to Italy now?

Yes, OK. I'll get the popcorn ready.

The problems people had with FOM were not based on benefit claimers. It was the impact of unlimited cheap labour that put UK resources and services under massive strain and drove a huge house price inflation, all unplanned for (15K migrants as projected by Labour turned into 250,000 per anum). There were also some large wage stagnation/deflation issues people were experiencing in certain blue collar sectors.

The Italian issue will be fudged for now, after lots of arm waving. The Eurozone wont change in this respect until the markets blow it up.

[Enricogto]

Digga said:

Gargamel said:

Digga said:

It will be exceptionally difficult to get the Italian government to back down. The Greeks were amateurs compared to the Italians when it comes to political gamesmanship and skulduggery. The EU has no alternative but to hold the line, because that is everything it stands for, but as with the UK's dissatisfaction with the immigration policies, there is no hiding from the Italian's desire to make their own way.

I think it is quite hard for the Italians to accept that they can't set their own budget, and even be a little expansionary with the money supply. Especially when both France and Germany have completed ignored the rules of the Financial Stability Pact with total immunity.

I agree completely. The hypocrisy is clear. Interestingly, with German growth stalling, in spite of exceptionally low interest rates, the argument to expand (notwithstanding current debt/GDP levels in some places like Italy) has some merit.

In many regards, the whole intractability of the problem typifies why the EU either needs significant reform or be dismantled.

^^^^
This is the whole issue, well summarised.
The only issue is that some of the manouvers included in the budget are purely populistic drivel with no direct economic benefit. If the whole budget was aimed at stimulating growth, then it would make more sense to argue the point. At the same time, the EU and France in particular are seriously working towards alienating EU-support in Italy. It will be interesting to see which side Angie and her heirs will support when push comes to shove.

[Digga]

Human behavioral psychology is very clear on this point: there is an asymmetry between gains and losses. People feel the pain of lost money or liberty more keenly than they appreciate a gain of similar magnitude.

The EU consistently fails to appreciate this to their peril. If people see enough 'losses' they can become blind to the gains and the lost of trust this represents is extremely difficult to repair. In basic terms, this is the miscalculation the EU made with the UK. Perhaps their 'success' with persuading the Greeks gave them a misplaced confidence. It most certainly will not wash with the Italians.