Italy defies it's Economy Minister...

[Kermit power]

jsf said:

The problems people had with FOM were not based on benefit claimers. It was the impact of unlimited cheap labour that put UK resources and services under massive strain and drove a huge house price inflation, all unplanned for (15K migrants as projected by Labour turned into 250,000 per anum). There were also some large wage stagnation/deflation issues people were experiencing in certain blue collar sectors.

That's all true, but I still don't see that as an EU issue though.

In spite of all that immigration, in spite of minimum wage, in spite of increasing automation, we've still got effectively full employment.

That's not going to change until the government stops paying people pensions for twenty years before they die. The longer it goes on, the more immigrants we're going to need, so it really doesn't matter whether we're in the EU or not.

[amusingduck]

Digga said:

Human behavioral psychology is very clear on this point: there is an asymmetry between gains and losses. People feel the pain of lost money or liberty more keenly than they appreciate a gain of similar magnitude.

The EU consistently fails to appreciate this to their peril. If people see enough 'losses' they can become blind to the gains and the lost of trust this represents is extremely difficult to repair. In basic terms, this is the miscalculation the EU made with the UK. Perhaps their 'success' with persuading the Greeks gave them a misplaced confidence. It most certainly will not wash with the Italians.

Did it actually wash with the Greeks, or just their PM?

[Digga]

amusingduck said:

Digga said:

Human behavioral psychology is very clear on this point: there is an asymmetry between gains and losses. People feel the pain of lost money or liberty more keenly than they appreciate a gain of similar magnitude.

The EU consistently fails to appreciate this to their peril. If people see enough 'losses' they can become blind to the gains and the lost of trust this represents is extremely difficult to repair. In basic terms, this is the miscalculation the EU made with the UK. Perhaps their 'success' with persuading the Greeks gave them a misplaced confidence. It most certainly will not wash with the Italians.

Did it actually wash with the Greeks, or just their PM?

No it did not. In point of fact, the EU were merely able to bully the Greek government. Italy has more leverage.

[MDMetal]

Digga said:

amusingduck said:

Digga said:

Human behavioral psychology is very clear on this point: there is an asymmetry between gains and losses. People feel the pain of lost money or liberty more keenly than they appreciate a gain of similar magnitude.

The EU consistently fails to appreciate this to their peril. If people see enough 'losses' they can become blind to the gains and the lost of trust this represents is extremely difficult to repair. In basic terms, this is the miscalculation the EU made with the UK. Perhaps their 'success' with persuading the Greeks gave them a misplaced confidence. It most certainly will not wash with the Italians.

Did it actually wash with the Greeks, or just their PM?

No it did not. In point of fact, the EU were merely able to bully the Greek government. Italy has more leverage.

It's the same issues all over again, instead of the EU core seeing that people are unhappy with an issue and moving to some level of adjustment they just decide to plow on because they feel their idea is so great. The EU isn't about 27 countries working together it's about 27 countries working together on a very prescribed path with little deviation. Whenever an issue arises it never informs or causes an improvement, the solution to the Greek issue was to make the Greeks agree, the solution to Italy will be to force Italy to agree, the solution to Brexit is either to make us change our minds or ensure nobody else seeks to do the same.

How many fires with the same cause need to be put out before someone notices the root issues and moves to fix them? The people can't actually vote for change the EU is largely organised to ensure a high level of continuity to create a sea change is next to impossible. If it was easier to vote for change we'd have seen the EU slowly reshape and remold itself to match the needs of it's citizens but instead you get these quite extreme revolts pop up every now and again which just get stamped on without any signs of lessons being learnt.

It's always self-preservation never self-improvement.

[WyrleyD]

Well, it looks as though things are warming up nicely, Italy have re-submitted the same budget and Salvini told the EU that they are making a mistake if they move to impose fines.

https://uk.reuters.com/article/us-italy-eu-budget-...

[anonymous-user]

I wonder if the Germans are kicking themselves yet that they conspired with France to water down the penalties for breaching the debt and deficit rules of the [Maastrict Treaty] Stability and Growth Pact back when it suited them in 2004?

http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/chance...

[bazza white]

Rejected again. This will get interesting.

[Digga]

bazza white said:

Rejected again. This will get interesting.

So the EU will fine Italy because they cannot afford their spending plans. Makes perfect sense.

[Lotobear]

...what the EU needs is a good army to whip those dissenters into shape, ....oh hang a minute

[psi310398]

fblm]I wonder if the Germans are kicking themselves yet that they conspired with France to water down the penalties for breaching the debt and deficit rules of the [Maastrict Treaty said:

Stability and Growth Pact back when it suited them in 2004?

http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/chance...

Of course not. If you read the German press, which I assume reflects German society as it wants to sell copies, while it does go in for some introspective hair-pulling and rending of garments over one aspect of the state of Germany or another from time to time, when it comes to neighbours most of it is suffused with a condescending and highly smug superiority that the rest of Europe (us included) are sadly benighted individuals who don't really understand the realities of life and, consequently should really follow their lead.

I mean it's almost as if they invented the rule of law, democracy and human rights or something, and we need to catch up.

[Leicester Loyal]

psi310398 said:

fblm]I wonder if the Germans are kicking themselves yet that they conspired with France to water down the penalties for breaching the debt and deficit rules of the [Maastrict Treaty said:

Stability and Growth Pact back when it suited them in 2004?

http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/chance...

Of course not. If you read the German press, which I assume reflects German society as it wants to sell copies, while it does go in for some introspective hair-pulling and rending of garments over one aspect of the state of Germany or another from time to time, when it comes to neighbours most of it is suffused with a condescending and highly smug superiority that the rest of Europe (us included) are sadly benighted individuals who don't really understand the realities of life and, consequently should really follow their lead.

I mean it's almost as if they invented the rule of law, democracy and human rights or something, and we need to catch up.

Let's not get into the history of Germany.

[Digga]

psi310398 said:

I mean it's almost as if they invented the rule of law, democracy and human rights or something, and we need to catch up.

The whole of the EU seems to think they have something to tell the UK about that when, in point of fact, indisputably, the UK are the arbiters. We have been a functioning democracy for longer than many of the EU 27 have actually been countries, let alone democracies.

[anonymous-user]

bazza white said:

Rejected again. This will get interesting.

There was a game invented in 1972 that represents this.

Pong.

[gareth_r]

TooMany2cvs said:

JuanCarlosFandango said:

Business

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/2835573/Nissan...
Nissan will leave if we don't join the euro, 2002

The article doesn't say that. It says they'll consider further investment.

The Telegraph said:

Mr Ghosn, who is credited with having transformed the fortunes of Nissan, said that if Britain did not join the euro, the company could decide on "less assembly activity".

Nissan already sources 30pc of the parts for the Micra in sterling to reduce the effects of a strong pound, against 80pc on its previous model.

Is that the Mr Ghosn who has just been arrested in Japan for transforming his personal fortunes?

[Derek Smith]

Digga said:

psi310398 said:

I mean it's almost as if they invented the rule of law, democracy and human rights or something, and we need to catch up.

The whole of the EU seems to think they have something to tell the UK about that when, in point of fact, indisputably, the UK are the arbiters. We have been a functioning democracy for longer than many of the EU 27 have actually been countries, let alone democracies.

The UK has been a democracy only since 1928.

I'm not sure when human rights became something of an issue in the UK.

[psi310398]

Derek Smith said:

The UK has been a democracy only since 1928.

I'm not sure when human rights became something of an issue in the UK.

I think the notion of habeas corpus might have helped that ball start rolling.

[steveT350C]

Some details here
http://www.cityam.com/269491/brussels-moves-issue-...

[anonymous-user]

steveT350C said:

Some details here
http://www.cityam.com/269491/brussels-moves-issue-...

“The commission said it will now open a "debt-based excessive deficit procedure" (EDP), after it ruled that Italy's revised budget plan does not comply with the EU's criteria on debt reduction.“

Amazing. The EU sets policies that ruin its members then proposes to fine them when they try to do something to stop the rot.

Arrogance beyond measure.

[Gargamel]

REALIST123 said:

steveT350C said:

Some details here
http://www.cityam.com/269491/brussels-moves-issue-...

“The commission said it will now open a "debt-based excessive deficit procedure" (EDP), after it ruled that Italy's revised budget plan does not comply with the EU's criteria on debt reduction.“

Amazing. The EU sets policies that ruin its members then proposes to fine them when they try to do something to stop the rot.

Arrogance beyond measure.

Didn’t fine Germany or France when they breached and are still breaking the rules on growth and stability

[anonymous-user]

REALIST123 said:

“The commission said it will now open a "debt-based excessive deficit procedure" (EDP), after it ruled that Italy's revised budget plan does not comply with the EU's criteria on debt reduction.“

Amazing. The EU sets policies that ruin its members then proposes to fine them when they try to do something to stop the rot.

Arrogance beyond measure.

That's what happens when you throw away your printing presses and sign up to a system you cant leave.

And people think the WA is a good idea.