Italy defies it's Economy Minister...
Discussion
TooMany2cvs said:
Penelope Stopit said:
This is interesting, I thought it was only my local area on the Greek mainland that was suffering. I heard a whisper that the loacal council won't spend the money on diesel for the bin wagons, what I don't know is whether they have the money to spend or not
It amuses me no end how many posters to topics like this one give their opinions yet know so little about the direct affects of the crumbling EU
Because, obviously, the Greek economy was thriving before the Eurozone (not EU...) strictures were imposed?It amuses me no end how many posters to topics like this one give their opinions yet know so little about the direct affects of the crumbling EU
There was no widespread lead-swinging, and no widespread tax-dodging, and no widespread cushy early retirement... Oh, no, heavens no. All the sums added up, and all the public services were faultless, and nobody ever left buildings half-built so as not to pay property taxes...
Did the EU not know what you do?
TooMany2cvs said:
Penelope Stopit said:
This is interesting, I thought it was only my local area on the Greek mainland that was suffering. I heard a whisper that the loacal council won't spend the money on diesel for the bin wagons, what I don't know is whether they have the money to spend or not
It amuses me no end how many posters to topics like this one give their opinions yet know so little about the direct affects of the crumbling EU
Because, obviously, the Greek economy was thriving before the Eurozone (not EU...) strictures were imposed?It amuses me no end how many posters to topics like this one give their opinions yet know so little about the direct affects of the crumbling EU
There was no widespread lead-swinging, and no widespread tax-dodging, and no widespread cushy early retirement... Oh, no, heavens no. All the sums added up, and all the public services were faultless, and nobody ever left buildings half-built so as not to pay property taxes...
These problems in one way or another affect many countries, easy money is a massive danger and I like many Greeks agree with your comments
Germany seems to be doing well and at a guess its workforce's attitude plays a big part
It will be interesting to see how JLR do with the new factory in Slovenia and if production is of a better standard, if so fingers will be pointed and factories will possibly move to other countries
don'tbesilly said:
Yet the EU not only encouraged Greece to join the EU, they allowed Greece to join the EU.
Did the EU not know what you do?
Cooked books......Turn a blind eye....The rest is historyDid the EU not know what you do?
Greece shouldn't have been let in
Looking at it from another angle.....Allowing Greece in was a certainty to leave it in a proper mess and........We know what's happening now don't we
loafer123 said:
Ironically, it did work despite all of those issues, because the country could devalue it's currency to make up for them.
Yes, and that's SUCH a sustainable long-term strategy...Penelope Stopit said:
Greece shouldn't have been let in
It could have worked out for Greece - if they'd taken action to straighten out the cause of the problems. And that cause was ENTIRELY internal.They're merely reaping the results of that failure. Same for Italy.
But, yes, this is all exactly why I thought the Euro was a step too far, and why the UK was wise to stay out. The UK's managed to work quite happily as an EU member outside the Euro for 16 years so far...
Edited by TooMany2cvs on Thursday 25th October 17:06
loafer123 said:
TooMany2cvs said:
Penelope Stopit said:
This is interesting, I thought it was only my local area on the Greek mainland that was suffering. I heard a whisper that the loacal council won't spend the money on diesel for the bin wagons, what I don't know is whether they have the money to spend or not
It amuses me no end how many posters to topics like this one give their opinions yet know so little about the direct affects of the crumbling EU
Because, obviously, the Greek economy was thriving before the Eurozone (not EU...) strictures were imposed?It amuses me no end how many posters to topics like this one give their opinions yet know so little about the direct affects of the crumbling EU
There was no widespread lead-swinging, and no widespread tax-dodging, and no widespread cushy early retirement... Oh, no, heavens no. All the sums added up, and all the public services were faultless, and nobody ever left buildings half-built so as not to pay property taxes...
It kept them poorer, but possibly happier. Now they have more Audis but no rubbish collection and high youth unemployment.
Whether that is an improvement, I somewhat doubt.
psi310398 said:
I'm in Italy at the moment. (Admittedly in the North, Salvini territory.)
The usual caveats about anecdote and impressions apply to the following.
The mood seems very supportive of the government and, interestingly, hot on the outcome of a poll for the European Parliament (if I'm understanding the television reports correctly) that suggests that Italy as whole is now more Eurosceptic than the UK, although interestingly not pressing to leave the EU. The report referred to a poll of nearly 28,000 Europeans commissioned by the European Parliament and conducted as recently as September. My Italian is far from perfect but I think the basics are correct.
If I understood this right, only 44% of Italians surveyed said they would vote to stay in the EU, reported as the lowest percentage of all 28 member states – including the UK (where the comparator figure in the poll was 53%).
It also stated that only 43% of Italians – the lowest percentage overall – felt that their country had benefited from being a member, compared to 45% who said it had not. They also felt more disenfranchised than other countries, with 66% saying they felt their country's voice didn't count in the EU.
(Interestingly, the report highlighted that a clear majority of respondents in Italy were convinced that things in the EU were going in the wrong direction: 58%, with just 21% who said it was on the right track, and that most EU countries had answered similarly with a comparable percentage of people in France, Spain and Germany saying exactly the same thing.)
This is coupled to a real sense (backed up by frequent throwaway comments I hear in day-to-day conversation), that things are being run solely for the convenience of the Germans and to a degree the French. There is real outrage at the level of (especially youth) unemployment and no sense of growth leading to a way out.
Talking to various neighbours (who view the antics of the Liga and 5 Star with horror), the view seems to be that Salvini has nothing much to lose as, if the coalition with 5 Star fails, he stands to make considerable gains in any subsequent election. And Brussels is unlikely to be too hard in the end, because if it isn't, it is inevitable that Italian banks would quickly collapse, with the contagion is likely to spread beyond Italy and possibly threaten the Euro itself.
Therefore what J-CJ and co will need to calculate is whether they really need another big dispute simultaneous with their ding dongs with the Hungarians, Poles etc, as well as Brexit. Especially one that could lead to bank collapses all over Europe. Interestingly, Brexit was not mentioned much or as a possible cause/precedent for restraint.
I think many Italians are putting their money on Brussels blinking first and coming up with a fudge.
I suspect that the declining popularity of the EU with the Italian population is as much to do with the migrant issue as it is with the country’s complete, € induced, financial stagnation. Along with Greece, Italy has been on the receiving end of the flow of North Africans across the Med, and the EU as a whole have been shown to be completely incapable of managing it. The usual caveats about anecdote and impressions apply to the following.
The mood seems very supportive of the government and, interestingly, hot on the outcome of a poll for the European Parliament (if I'm understanding the television reports correctly) that suggests that Italy as whole is now more Eurosceptic than the UK, although interestingly not pressing to leave the EU. The report referred to a poll of nearly 28,000 Europeans commissioned by the European Parliament and conducted as recently as September. My Italian is far from perfect but I think the basics are correct.
If I understood this right, only 44% of Italians surveyed said they would vote to stay in the EU, reported as the lowest percentage of all 28 member states – including the UK (where the comparator figure in the poll was 53%).
It also stated that only 43% of Italians – the lowest percentage overall – felt that their country had benefited from being a member, compared to 45% who said it had not. They also felt more disenfranchised than other countries, with 66% saying they felt their country's voice didn't count in the EU.
(Interestingly, the report highlighted that a clear majority of respondents in Italy were convinced that things in the EU were going in the wrong direction: 58%, with just 21% who said it was on the right track, and that most EU countries had answered similarly with a comparable percentage of people in France, Spain and Germany saying exactly the same thing.)
This is coupled to a real sense (backed up by frequent throwaway comments I hear in day-to-day conversation), that things are being run solely for the convenience of the Germans and to a degree the French. There is real outrage at the level of (especially youth) unemployment and no sense of growth leading to a way out.
Talking to various neighbours (who view the antics of the Liga and 5 Star with horror), the view seems to be that Salvini has nothing much to lose as, if the coalition with 5 Star fails, he stands to make considerable gains in any subsequent election. And Brussels is unlikely to be too hard in the end, because if it isn't, it is inevitable that Italian banks would quickly collapse, with the contagion is likely to spread beyond Italy and possibly threaten the Euro itself.
Therefore what J-CJ and co will need to calculate is whether they really need another big dispute simultaneous with their ding dongs with the Hungarians, Poles etc, as well as Brexit. Especially one that could lead to bank collapses all over Europe. Interestingly, Brexit was not mentioned much or as a possible cause/precedent for restraint.
I think many Italians are putting their money on Brussels blinking first and coming up with a fudge.
As for solidarity, other EU members (France and Germany) have funded humanitarian vessels run by NGOs to save the poor people who are trafficked across, kindly then depositing them in Italian ports. The political outcry and shaming when Salvini shut the ports to them and said “Take them to your own countries” was so hypocritical. Macron made a big deal about how inhumane Salvini was being, yet only last week French cops were filmed driving migrants across the French border in the alps to dump them by the road in Italy.
don'tbesilly said:
TooMany2cvs said:
Because, obviously, the Greek economy was thriving before the Eurozone (not EU...) strictures were imposed?
There was no widespread lead-swinging, and no widespread tax-dodging, and no widespread cushy early retirement... Oh, no, heavens no. All the sums added up, and all the public services were faultless, and nobody ever left buildings half-built so as not to pay property taxes...
Yet the EU not only encouraged Greece to join the EU, they allowed Greece to join the EU.There was no widespread lead-swinging, and no widespread tax-dodging, and no widespread cushy early retirement... Oh, no, heavens no. All the sums added up, and all the public services were faultless, and nobody ever left buildings half-built so as not to pay property taxes...
Or do you mean the Euro?
Do you even understand that there's a world of difference?
"oooh, the EU is too controlling"
"oooh, how did the EU allow them to get away with it"
TooMany2cvs said:
loafer123 said:
Ironically, it did work despite all of those issues, because the country could devalue it's currency to make up for them.
Yes, and that's SUCH a sustainable long-term strategy...Penelope Stopit said:
Greece shouldn't have been let in
It could have worked out for Greece - if they'd taken action to straighten out the cause of the problems. And that cause was ENTIRELY internal.They're merely reaping the results of that failure. Same for Italy.
But, yes, this is all exactly why I thought the Euro was a step too far, and why the UK was wise to stay out. The UK's managed to work quite happily as an EU member outside the Euro for 16 years so far...
Edited by TooMany2cvs on Thursday 25th October 17:06
TooMany2cvs said:
loafer123 said:
Ironically, it did work despite all of those issues, because the country could devalue it's currency to make up for them.
Yes, and that's SUCH a sustainable long-term strategy...Penelope Stopit said:
Yes and the UK will very likely plod along ok once completely out of it all. What pisses me off is that the UK could be the tops in Europe but doesn't work hard enough
The issue is that we don't have the same dreams for Europe as the other major countries. The EU wants a single superstate, with a federal structure and a single currency.We don't, and therefore we were never going to be the top of the EU tree.
loafer123 said:
The EU wants a single superstate, with a federal structure
You do realise that any such change would require a treaty that would need to be agreed by EVERY member, right? And that the UK now has laws in place to require a referendum before signing any treaty change? After MEPs had voted for it...loafer123 said:
and a single currency.
Which has been in place for a decade and a half, and which the UK loafer123 said:
We don't, and therefore we were never going to be the top of the EU tree.
Why does anybody have to be "top of the tree"? Why can't it be a nice sensible discussion and democratically-voted agreement amongst equals? Like, well, it is.TooMany2cvs said:
loafer123 said:
The EU wants a single superstate, with a federal structure
You do realise that any such change would require a treaty that would need to be agreed by EVERY member, right? And that the UK now has laws in place to require a referendum before signing any treaty change? After MEPs had voted for it...loafer123 said:
and a single currency.
Which has been in place for a decade and a half, and which the UK loafer123 said:
We don't, and therefore we were never going to be the top of the EU tree.
Why does anybody have to be "top of the tree"? Why can't it be a nice sensible discussion and democratically-voted agreement amongst equals? Like, well, it is.
Wow. You mean the Leavers have got their knickers in a twist all over nothing?!TooMany2cvs said:
Mostly, yes.
Facts and reality were so inconvenient.
And does the near-pervasive discontent across Europe evinced in the European Parliament's latest Eurobarometer reflect a defective understanding of the situation European citizens find themselves in? Facts and reality were so inconvenient.
Crikey! You do have a bad dose of the federalist bug
!psi310398 said:
And does the near-pervasive discontent across Europe evinced in the European Parliament's latest Eurobarometer reflect a defective understanding of the situation European citizens find themselves in?
You mean this one?Spring 18 Eurobarometer said:
Overall, 42% of Europeans trust the European Union, more than the proportion who trust their national parliament and their national government (34% for both institutions). While trust in the European Union has increased slightly (+1 percentage point since autumn 2017), trust in national governments (34%, -2) and in national parliaments (34%, -1) have lost ground, for the second consecutive time. At 42%, trust in the European Union remains at its highest level since autumn 2010.
First Results doc, p15, section II.1http://ec.europa.eu/commfrontoffice/publicopinion/...
psi310398 said:
Crikey! You do have a bad dose of the federalist bug!
No, I have a !TooMany2cvs said:
psi310398 said:
And does the near-pervasive discontent across Europe evinced in the European Parliament's latest Eurobarometer reflect a defective understanding of the situation European citizens find themselves in?
You mean this one?Spring 18 Eurobarometer said:
Overall, 42% of Europeans trust the European Union, more than the proportion who trust their national parliament and their national government (34% for both institutions). While trust in the European Union has increased slightly (+1 percentage point since autumn 2017), trust in national governments (34%, -2) and in national parliaments (34%, -1) have lost ground, for the second consecutive time. At 42%, trust in the European Union remains at its highest level since autumn 2010.
First Results doc, p15, section II.1http://ec.europa.eu/commfrontoffice/publicopinion/...
psi310398 said:
Crikey! You do have a bad dose of the federalist bug!
No, I have a !TooMany2cvs said:
No, I have a bad very healthy dose of the "facts and reality" bug.
Err, so 58% of the populace having a negative or neutral view is a resounding vote of confidence is it? The perception across Europe that it might be less s
t than some home governments does not alter the fact and reality of lack of support for the EU. 
Just to reinforce an earlier point about bailouts being for the benefit of foreign banks, usually French and German, not the EU country being bailed:
https://wolfstreet.com/2018/10/30/france-worried-a...
"France was just served with a stark reminder of an inconvenient truth: €277 billion of Italian government debt — the equivalent of 14% of French GDP — is owed to French banks"
"German lenders have €79 billion worth of exposure to Italian debt and Spanish lenders, €69 billion. In other words, taken together, the financial sectors of the largest, second largest and fourth largest economies in the Eurozone — Germany, France and Spain — hold over €415 billion of Italian debt on their balance sheets."
Will they push the government of Italy into accepting a 'bailout' with various conditions attached like they did with Ireland and Greece? Should be interesting if Italy calls their bluff. They are the third biggest Eurozone economy after all
https://wolfstreet.com/2018/10/30/france-worried-a...
"France was just served with a stark reminder of an inconvenient truth: €277 billion of Italian government debt — the equivalent of 14% of French GDP — is owed to French banks"
"German lenders have €79 billion worth of exposure to Italian debt and Spanish lenders, €69 billion. In other words, taken together, the financial sectors of the largest, second largest and fourth largest economies in the Eurozone — Germany, France and Spain — hold over €415 billion of Italian debt on their balance sheets."
Will they push the government of Italy into accepting a 'bailout' with various conditions attached like they did with Ireland and Greece? Should be interesting if Italy calls their bluff. They are the third biggest Eurozone economy after all
It is not going to end well. Given the ECB is struggling to end QE, let alone raise interest rates much above zero, and that Germany will not be able to sell Italian (or French for that matter) debt/bank bailouts to it's voters, you wonder what's next.
The current situation in another graph:
The current situation in another graph:
Lucas Ayde said:
Just to reinforce an earlier point about bailouts being for the benefit of foreign banks, usually French and German, not the EU country being bailed:
https://wolfstreet.com/2018/10/30/france-worried-a...
"France was just served with a stark reminder of an inconvenient truth: €277 billion of Italian government debt — the equivalent of 14% of French GDP — is owed to French banks"
"German lenders have €79 billion worth of exposure to Italian debt and Spanish lenders, €69 billion. In other words, taken together, the financial sectors of the largest, second largest and fourth largest economies in the Eurozone — Germany, France and Spain — hold over €415 billion of Italian debt on their balance sheets."
Will they push the government of Italy into accepting a 'bailout' with various conditions attached like they did with Ireland and Greece? Should be interesting if Italy calls their bluff. They are the third biggest Eurozone economy after all
Retarded post because 1. Theres 60 million people who dont want to starve to death https://wolfstreet.com/2018/10/30/france-worried-a...
"France was just served with a stark reminder of an inconvenient truth: €277 billion of Italian government debt — the equivalent of 14% of French GDP — is owed to French banks"
"German lenders have €79 billion worth of exposure to Italian debt and Spanish lenders, €69 billion. In other words, taken together, the financial sectors of the largest, second largest and fourth largest economies in the Eurozone — Germany, France and Spain — hold over €415 billion of Italian debt on their balance sheets."
Will they push the government of Italy into accepting a 'bailout' with various conditions attached like they did with Ireland and Greece? Should be interesting if Italy calls their bluff. They are the third biggest Eurozone economy after all
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