Don't Mention the War. Or Churchill.
Discussion
jakesmith said:
But apart from that, good effort!
It’s amazing anyone bothers to post anything on PH now.As my post stated it’s an interesting book with sources that can be further investigated. It’s not just one blokes diatribe against British politics.
And to think it was just a case of the treaty between Japan and Britain finishing is very simplistic.
Topbuzz said:
It’s amazing anyone bothers to post anything on PH now.
As my post stated it’s an interesting book with sources that can be further investigated. It’s not just one blokes diatribe against British politics.
And to think it was just a case of the treaty between Japan and Britain finishing is very simplistic.
well you've piqued my interest in it!As my post stated it’s an interesting book with sources that can be further investigated. It’s not just one blokes diatribe against British politics.
And to think it was just a case of the treaty between Japan and Britain finishing is very simplistic.
Fat Fairy said:
So which bit of "In the event of the Germans using gas on the Russians, my declaration of last year of course stands. We shall retaliate by drenching the German cities with gas on the largest possible scale...." are you having issues with?
Churchill was stating "If the Germans use gas on our allies, we will retaliate"
That's what allies do, isn't it? Look out for each other!
"...tear gas would have been as much use against Kurdish tribes as confetti.."
Cor. I wish I was as hard as a Kurd. When I got tear gassed (on a regular basis) I couldn't see, my eyes were painful, breathing was unpleasant because of burning sensations in my throat and nose. 'Increased nasal secretions' are considered normal for CS Gas, which means for most people, you have an entire week long, stinking colds worth of snot trying to exit your nose in a 5 to 10 minute interval. You get chest tightness, sneezing, coughing and retching. All the things that your 'Super Kurds' will be immune to eh?
FF
I have been tear gassed and CS gassed and in a confined space it is extremely unpleasant but dispersed over a wide area in the open not very effective. WSC approved the use of poison gas, by which he meant mustard gas and it was due to the scruples of others that it was not used. To quote, from a War Office Minute of 12th May 1919 - Churchill was stating "If the Germans use gas on our allies, we will retaliate"
That's what allies do, isn't it? Look out for each other!
"...tear gas would have been as much use against Kurdish tribes as confetti.."
Cor. I wish I was as hard as a Kurd. When I got tear gassed (on a regular basis) I couldn't see, my eyes were painful, breathing was unpleasant because of burning sensations in my throat and nose. 'Increased nasal secretions' are considered normal for CS Gas, which means for most people, you have an entire week long, stinking colds worth of snot trying to exit your nose in a 5 to 10 minute interval. You get chest tightness, sneezing, coughing and retching. All the things that your 'Super Kurds' will be immune to eh?
FF
"I do not understand this squeamishness about the use of gas. We have definitely adopted the position at the Peace Conference of arguing in favour of the retention of gas as a permanent method of warfare. It is sheer affectation to lacerate a man with the poisonous fragment of a bursting shell and to boggle at making his eyes water by means of lachrymatory gas. I am strongly in favour of using poisoned gas against uncivilised tribes. The moral effect should be so good that the loss of life should be reduced to a minimum. It is not necessary to use only the most deadly gasses: gasses can be used which cause great inconvenience and would spread a lively terror and yet would leave no serious permanent effects on most of those affected."
Russian Troll Bot said:
cardigankid said:
Churchill ordered the bombing of German cities in WW2 well before Germany bombed British cities.
The only reason bombs landed in Germany before Britain is that the Luftwaffe were too busy indiscriminately targeting cities such as Rotterdam and Warsaw, and London was bombed several times before the first raid on Berlin."One finds today the almost universal belief that Hitler started the indiscriminate bombing of civilians, whereas it was started by the directors of British strategy." - AJP Taylor
In 1936 Bomber Command came into existence and long range Bomber planes started to be constructed. Its purpose was candidly described by JM Spaight of the Air Ministry. "The whole raison d'etre of Bomber Command was to bomb Germany should she be our enemy."
"Hitler repeatedly sought to secure a truce in city bombing, and that in future conflicts bombing should be confined to the narrow zone of military operation" - Basil Liddell-Hart, The Revolution in Warfare 1946
Churchill to American Military Attache General Wood, 1936, "Germany is getting too strong, we must smash her".
"Whatever the length to which others may go, HM Government will never resort to deliberate attack on women and children, and other civilians, for the purpose of mere terrorism" - Neville Chamberlain to the House of Commons 15th February 1940.
May 10th 1940 - Churchill replaces Chamberlain.
May 11th 1940 - Bomber Command launches it first bombing raid over towns in Western Germany. The ostensible target was 'railway installations' but if you bomb a railway station you are bombing a town.
May 12th 1940 - War Cabinet Minutes "The Prime Minister was no longer bound by our previously held scruples as to initiating unrestricted air warfare".
12th August 1940 - 81 bombers launch a night attack on Berlin.
6th September 1940 - Luftwaffe attack London in reprisal.
Only after six further attacks on Berlin, did the Blitz begin. The British people were not permitted to find out that the Government could have stopped the German raids at any time merely by stopping the raids on Germany.
"Because we were doubtful about the psychological effect of the distortion of truth that it was we who started the strategic bombing offensive, we have shrunk from giving our great decision of May 11th 1940 the publicity which it deserved. That surely was a mistake. It was a splendid decision" JM Spaight 'Bombing Vindicated' 1944.
16th December 1940 - 134 RAF Bombers took out the defenceless city of Mannheim. Men, women and children.
That's what your great hero Churchill did. The bombing deaths, on both sides are on him. He was no more than a bloody handed murderer.
Fat Fairy said:
"It is not necessary to use only the most deadly gasses: gasses can be used which cause great inconvenience and would spread a lively terror and yet would leave no serious permanent effects on most of those affected."
The last line from your own quote....
FF
Try a course on critical reading. You ignored the word 'only'. The last line from your own quote....
FF
Cardigankid, could you say when you think the first raids on UK soil by the Germans that affected civilians was? I am ignoring the raids on Poland and other countries however if any civilian infrastructure was hit does that not by your words mean the attacks were non military?
Do you see any connection between the German air units in Spain and the Nazi's or is that all PR to jaundice the view against them?
Do you see any connection between the German air units in Spain and the Nazi's or is that all PR to jaundice the view against them?
Phud said:
Cardigankid, could you say when you think the first raids on UK soil by the Germans that affected civilians was? I am ignoring the raids on Poland and other countries however if any civilian infrastructure was hit does that not by your words mean the attacks were non military?
Do you see any connection between the German air units in Spain and the Nazi's or is that all PR to jaundice the view against them?
Phud, whatever I think, you obviously think you know so why don't you tell us? Do you see any connection between the German air units in Spain and the Nazi's or is that all PR to jaundice the view against them?
I am arguing against bombing civilians, not for it, and I am not trying to justify the Nazi regime's actions, so I am unsure what the relevance of Guernica to the debate is. I am arguing that strategic bombing of cities was deliberate British policy from 1936, for which purpose they developed the organisation and weapons to do it. Churchill deliberately triggered the London Blitz when it did not need to happen, promoted a policy of indiscriminate attacks on civilian targets, and then, lest we forget, personally retreated to a safe distance to watch. Far from restraining Harris as that campaign developed, he was the instigator and motive force behind it. When the horror and futility of what was being done became obvious, he stepped back and allowed Harris to be the scapegoat.
cardigankid said:
Fat Fairy said:
"It is not necessary to use only the most deadly gasses: gasses can be used which cause great inconvenience and would spread a lively terror and yet would leave no serious permanent effects on most of those affected."
The last line from your own quote....
FF
Try a course on critical reading. You ignored the word 'only'. The last line from your own quote....
FF
Try 'Specsavers'
FF
cardigankid said:
Russian Troll Bot said:
cardigankid said:
Churchill ordered the bombing of German cities in WW2 well before Germany bombed British cities.
Cardigankid said a lot.'During the German invasion of Poland, the Luftwaffe engaged in massive air raids against Polish cities,[45] bombing civilian infrastructure[45][46] such as hospitals[44][45] and targeting fleeing refugees.[47][48][49][50] Notably, the Luftwaffe bombed the Polish capital of Warsaw, and the small towns of Wieluń and Frampol. The bombing of Wieluń, the first military act of World War II (and hence, the first act of bombing, strategic or otherwise, or the war), was carried out on a town that had no military value.[51] Similarly, the bombing of Frampol has been described as an experiment to test the German tactics and weapons effectiveness. British historian Norman Davies writes in Europe at War 1939–1945: No Simple Victory: "Frampol was chosen partly because it was completely defenceless, and partly because its baroque street plan presented a perfect geometric grid for calculations and measurements."[52]
From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategic_bombing_du...
You will find interesting phrases there, such as 'civilian infrastructure such as hospitals..', 'targeting fleeing refugees...', 'no military value...', 'completely defenceless...'
The date involved is 1 September 1939. A long time before the appeasers in the British government were overruled.
You can bleat about how the nasty British did it first' as much as you like. Wieluń proves you wrong.
Is it not sickening? Bombing hospitals that were clearly marked, not by chance, but deliberately?
Straffing refugees to add terror to your tactics?
'Completely defenceless'? 'No military value'? Disgusting. Yet the Germans were upset because we did to them what they did to our allies?
I don't care if Bomber Command beat the Luftwaffe to the punch. I say 'Good'! Why wait for the Luftwaffe to bomb Great Ormond Street or whatever they could best target. They had shown their colours. The Luftwaffe was (IMHO) only holding back so Hitler could hope we didn't decide enough was enough!
So, do I need to go on? Do we need to go into detail about Warsaw? Where Hitler ordered a blockade of civilians trying to leave, then continued his bombing?
France, 'By 11 May, the French reported bombs dropped on Henin-Lietard, Bruay, Lens, La Fere, Loan, Nancy, Colmar, Pontoise, Lambersart, Lyons, Bouai, Hasebrouck, Doullens and Abbeville'.
Rotterdam? '..At the last minute, the Netherlands decided to submit and sent a plenipotentiary and other negotiators across to German lines. There was an attempt to call off the assault, but the bombing mission had already begun...' Oh, no radios on Luftwaffe aircraft then???
The Nazis were a vile stain on the human race. Evil, Vile people. Words fail me in response to their apologists.
FF
We always seem to get a thread like this during the lead up to Remembrance Sunday.?
Say what you want guys,we all live in a free world so do what you want. Slag off Churchill,praise Hitler, during the Poppy Appeal wear a WHITE Poppy what ever.
All I want to say is if it wasn't for Churchill`s leadership and the British people`s determination we would have lost WW2 and have been invaded.
We would not have been free to do and say what we wanted, forums like this would have been banned. As for wearing a Poppy on Remembrance Sunday,it would have been illegal and everyone would have been forced to wear a Swastika.
Say what you want guys,we all live in a free world so do what you want. Slag off Churchill,praise Hitler, during the Poppy Appeal wear a WHITE Poppy what ever.
All I want to say is if it wasn't for Churchill`s leadership and the British people`s determination we would have lost WW2 and have been invaded.
We would not have been free to do and say what we wanted, forums like this would have been banned. As for wearing a Poppy on Remembrance Sunday,it would have been illegal and everyone would have been forced to wear a Swastika.
FF - A significant amount of what you are saying is simply incorrect, as one would expect since your main source of information seems to be Wikipedia, which routinely repeats the standard claptrap. I could edit it myself if I wanted. In any case it is beside the point. I have said repeatedly that I am not here to stick up for Hitler, Goering or the Luftwaffe and I have no intention of being dragged into that.
What I have said, very simply, is that without Churchill's specific direction, there would have been no carpet bombing of cities, saving hundreds of thousands of, mostly innocent, lives on both sides, not to mention the 55,000 or so British airmen who died in a murderous and largely pointless campaign. The effort expended would have been far better used on other strategies, which might have involved far less needless loss of life.
But let's turn to Coventry - 14th November 1940 - the day Neville Chamberlain was buried, and also the day Churchill sacked Dowding, who had arguably won the Battle of Britain. The Air Ministry warns Churchill that a major air raid is planned, target probably London. Normally Churchill would nap until 3 or 4pm. Today he clears his appointments by 3.00pm, and after that summons his car to the rear garden gate, to take him to Dytchley, an estate north of Oxford owned by Ronald Tree, one of the group who had been supplying Churchill with funds since the mid 1930's. Dytchley is where Churchill retreats to when a major raid on London is predicted. The Air Ministry radio countermeasures unit picked up German radar beams intersecting over Coventry at 3.00pm. A report was immediately typed up, placed in the buff envelope for Churchill's eyes only, and sent to Downing Street. One of his secretaries, John Martin, rushes after the big man, stopping the car and handing the buff envelope in. At Kensington Gardens he tells the driver to turn back. John Martin notes in his pocket book, 'At no.10, False start for Dytchley'.
The staff are surprised to see Churchill back, but he explains, 'the beams indicate a colossal raid on London and he was not going to spend the night peacefully in the country while the Metropolis was under heavy attack.' (Sir John Martin's recollection in a letter to the Times 28th August 1976). In three hours, Coventry is going to get it. Your hero is back at No.10, solicitously sending all of his staff to bomb shelters, while he bravely goes up to his own bed, in the certain knowledge that, however many people die in Coventry he is 100% safe. He is not only a murderer, he is a fraud and a coward.
Now bear in mind that Boris Johnson models himself on Churchill.
What I have said, very simply, is that without Churchill's specific direction, there would have been no carpet bombing of cities, saving hundreds of thousands of, mostly innocent, lives on both sides, not to mention the 55,000 or so British airmen who died in a murderous and largely pointless campaign. The effort expended would have been far better used on other strategies, which might have involved far less needless loss of life.
But let's turn to Coventry - 14th November 1940 - the day Neville Chamberlain was buried, and also the day Churchill sacked Dowding, who had arguably won the Battle of Britain. The Air Ministry warns Churchill that a major air raid is planned, target probably London. Normally Churchill would nap until 3 or 4pm. Today he clears his appointments by 3.00pm, and after that summons his car to the rear garden gate, to take him to Dytchley, an estate north of Oxford owned by Ronald Tree, one of the group who had been supplying Churchill with funds since the mid 1930's. Dytchley is where Churchill retreats to when a major raid on London is predicted. The Air Ministry radio countermeasures unit picked up German radar beams intersecting over Coventry at 3.00pm. A report was immediately typed up, placed in the buff envelope for Churchill's eyes only, and sent to Downing Street. One of his secretaries, John Martin, rushes after the big man, stopping the car and handing the buff envelope in. At Kensington Gardens he tells the driver to turn back. John Martin notes in his pocket book, 'At no.10, False start for Dytchley'.
The staff are surprised to see Churchill back, but he explains, 'the beams indicate a colossal raid on London and he was not going to spend the night peacefully in the country while the Metropolis was under heavy attack.' (Sir John Martin's recollection in a letter to the Times 28th August 1976). In three hours, Coventry is going to get it. Your hero is back at No.10, solicitously sending all of his staff to bomb shelters, while he bravely goes up to his own bed, in the certain knowledge that, however many people die in Coventry he is 100% safe. He is not only a murderer, he is a fraud and a coward.
Now bear in mind that Boris Johnson models himself on Churchill.
t cardigan kid post on here.cardigankid said:
FF - A significant amount of what you are saying is simply incorrect, as one would expect since your main source of information seems to be Wikipedia, which routinely repeats the standard claptrap. I could edit it myself if I wanted. In any case it is beside the point. I have said repeatedly that I am not here to stick up for Hitler, Goering or the Luftwaffe and I have no intention of being dragged into that.
What I have said, very simply, is that without Churchill's specific direction, there would have been no carpet bombing of cities, saving hundreds of thousands of, mostly innocent, lives on both sides, not to mention the 55,000 or so British airmen who died in a murderous and largely pointless campaign. The effort expended would have been far better used on other strategies, which might have involved far less needless loss of life.
But let's turn to Coventry - 14th November 1940 - the day Neville Chamberlain was buried, and also the day Churchill sacked Dowding, who had arguably won the Battle of Britain. The Air Ministry warns Churchill that a major air raid is planned, target probably London. Normally Churchill would nap until 3 or 4pm. Today he clears his appointments by 3.00pm, and after that summons his car to the rear garden gate, to take him to Dytchley, an estate north of Oxford owned by Ronald Tree, one of the group who had been supplying Churchill with funds since the mid 1930's. Dytchley is where Churchill retreats to when a major raid on London is predicted. The Air Ministry radio countermeasures unit picked up German radar beams intersecting over Coventry at 3.00pm. A report was immediately typed up, placed in the buff envelope for Churchill's eyes only, and sent to Downing Street. One of his secretaries, John Martin, rushes after the big man, stopping the car and handing the buff envelope in. At Kensington Gardens he tells the driver to turn back. John Martin notes in his pocket book, 'At no.10, False start for Dytchley'.
The staff are surprised to see Churchill back, but he explains, 'the beams indicate a colossal raid on London and he was not going to spend the night peacefully in the country while the Metropolis was under heavy attack.' (Sir John Martin's recollection in a letter to the Times 28th August 1976). In three hours, Coventry is going to get it. Your hero is back at No.10, solicitously sending all of his staff to bomb shelters, while he bravely goes up to his own bed, in the certain knowledge that, however many people die in Coventry he is 100% safe. He is not only a murderer, he is a fraud and a coward.
Now bear in mind that Boris Johnson models himself on Churchill.
I quote Wiki because it is free to all, and is readily available. It is pretty reliable on non-contentious matters. I have quite a good library on the WW2 air war, but no-one else can read it because it is in my house.What I have said, very simply, is that without Churchill's specific direction, there would have been no carpet bombing of cities, saving hundreds of thousands of, mostly innocent, lives on both sides, not to mention the 55,000 or so British airmen who died in a murderous and largely pointless campaign. The effort expended would have been far better used on other strategies, which might have involved far less needless loss of life.
But let's turn to Coventry - 14th November 1940 - the day Neville Chamberlain was buried, and also the day Churchill sacked Dowding, who had arguably won the Battle of Britain. The Air Ministry warns Churchill that a major air raid is planned, target probably London. Normally Churchill would nap until 3 or 4pm. Today he clears his appointments by 3.00pm, and after that summons his car to the rear garden gate, to take him to Dytchley, an estate north of Oxford owned by Ronald Tree, one of the group who had been supplying Churchill with funds since the mid 1930's. Dytchley is where Churchill retreats to when a major raid on London is predicted. The Air Ministry radio countermeasures unit picked up German radar beams intersecting over Coventry at 3.00pm. A report was immediately typed up, placed in the buff envelope for Churchill's eyes only, and sent to Downing Street. One of his secretaries, John Martin, rushes after the big man, stopping the car and handing the buff envelope in. At Kensington Gardens he tells the driver to turn back. John Martin notes in his pocket book, 'At no.10, False start for Dytchley'.
The staff are surprised to see Churchill back, but he explains, 'the beams indicate a colossal raid on London and he was not going to spend the night peacefully in the country while the Metropolis was under heavy attack.' (Sir John Martin's recollection in a letter to the Times 28th August 1976). In three hours, Coventry is going to get it. Your hero is back at No.10, solicitously sending all of his staff to bomb shelters, while he bravely goes up to his own bed, in the certain knowledge that, however many people die in Coventry he is 100% safe. He is not only a murderer, he is a fraud and a coward.
Now bear in mind that Boris Johnson models himself on Churchill.
I see you no longer wish to spar on the 'Evil Brits Bombed the Innocent Germans First' front. Not surprising since the Wiki quotes are pretty damning, and easily verifiable. Deliberate targeting of Hospitals eh? 'No military significance', ooh er!
You say the bombing campaign was at Churchill's behest. I would imagine it was. It was one of the few ways we had to hit back. We could have stationed troops at Dover to make faces at the German occupation forces I suppose.
How many men do you think were tied down, manning FLAK towers, firefighting, flying and maintaining night fighters etc by Bomber Command? How many 88mm AA guns? You know, the ones so devastating to tanks... Just think what the Heer could do with an extra million men and thousands upon thousands of High velocity 88s. Moscow, here we come!
I assume this is why you have come on to Coventry. Do you really think Churchill should have gone to Coventry that night even if he knew? What should the leader of the government have done? Walked round with a fire extinguisher? Shook his fist at the Luftwaffe as they flew over? Get real! The last British leader to get involved in things that really did not involve him was George II at Dettingen 1743. The job of the Generals really...
As to Boris Johnson? What is this irrelevant twaddle?
FF
I’ll tell you how relevant it is FF.
If you guys are so easily suckered it is going to happen to you again. You need to exercise some critical judgement and not simply accept what you have been told by your betters. Most people are interested in their careers, their family, their security, and maybe even their cars. What they don’t want is to have themselves or members of their family sent out, maybe under compulsion, to be massacred for the benefit of some politicians and their paymasters.
If you guys are so easily suckered it is going to happen to you again. You need to exercise some critical judgement and not simply accept what you have been told by your betters. Most people are interested in their careers, their family, their security, and maybe even their cars. What they don’t want is to have themselves or members of their family sent out, maybe under compulsion, to be massacred for the benefit of some politicians and their paymasters.
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