Don't Mention the War. Or Churchill.
Discussion
You can talk about WW2 as long as you like. I could say that Britain declared war on Germany, not the reverse. Or that a more serious effort could have been made to resolve the genuine concerns of Germans living in former German territory outside Germany. Or that Germany attacked France at a point when there were 1.6 million French soldiers and 400,000 British in France about to set about Germany through Belgium and Holland. Or that Hitler ordered his armies to stop at Dunkirk because he thought that was the best way of reaching some peaceful agreement with Britain. Or that Churchill tried to invade Norway and Denmark to gain a strategic foothold from which to strangle Germany as had happened in WW1, and Germany invaded to counter that. Or that the catastrophic failure of that expedition (masterminded by Churchill) cost Chamberlain the Premiership. Or that Churchill did invade Iceland. And that Britain ended up with a leader who was bent on one purpose, as he said himself, to smash up Germany, whatever the cost in British or German or any other lives. All true and provable, but it doesn’t really matter, because Hitler was in my view a real problem. He led a nation which hated Jews, hated Bolsheviks, hated the French, indeed hated a lot of people, ironically the one people they did not seem to hate were the British, though he should have. He was going to have a war, not against France or Britain, but against Russia. That he would probably have won, then what?
But Nazi Germany as I said before was a direct result of invading and destroying a country and leaving it to starve in the rubble while it is pillaged by the victorious powers. It is identical to what happened following the British/American invasion of Iraq, and analogous to Afghanistan. An extremist group comes to power.
What you really need to understand is that Britain was responsible for all of that, because Britain started the First World War. We were the bad guys. Britain set up the scenario, organised the flashpoint, stifled every effort to preserve peace, deceived Parliament and the country, and wilfully launched a war aimed at crippling Germany. That was the real crime, and Churchill was right at the heart of it. Germany was the last major Power to mobilise because it was the only one which was trying to avert a war. Yet we have guys come on here who have read the odd Biggles book or the Daily Mail, saying ‘the Kaiser was bonkers’. The Kaiser was one of the few who tried to stop it. He was a hero, unlike Churchill, who was a reckless, self indulgent, corrupt, bloodthirsty warmonger. That is the real issue, and if you like I will be happy to prove it to you in every detail.
Alternatively you can preserve your sad illusions. You can all watch the panoply of Remembrance Day, without thinking too hard about who sent all those brave young men to death or dismemberment for their own foul benefit.
I’ll start by once again quoting from a poem, On passing The New Menin Gate by Siegfried Sassoon, who whatever his faults, was actually there, and you were not -
Here was the world's worst wound. And here with pride
'Their name liveth for ever', the Gateway claims.
Was ever an immolation so belied
as these intolerably nameless names?
Well might the Dead who struggled in the slime
Rise and deride this sepulchre of crime.
But Nazi Germany as I said before was a direct result of invading and destroying a country and leaving it to starve in the rubble while it is pillaged by the victorious powers. It is identical to what happened following the British/American invasion of Iraq, and analogous to Afghanistan. An extremist group comes to power.
What you really need to understand is that Britain was responsible for all of that, because Britain started the First World War. We were the bad guys. Britain set up the scenario, organised the flashpoint, stifled every effort to preserve peace, deceived Parliament and the country, and wilfully launched a war aimed at crippling Germany. That was the real crime, and Churchill was right at the heart of it. Germany was the last major Power to mobilise because it was the only one which was trying to avert a war. Yet we have guys come on here who have read the odd Biggles book or the Daily Mail, saying ‘the Kaiser was bonkers’. The Kaiser was one of the few who tried to stop it. He was a hero, unlike Churchill, who was a reckless, self indulgent, corrupt, bloodthirsty warmonger. That is the real issue, and if you like I will be happy to prove it to you in every detail.
Alternatively you can preserve your sad illusions. You can all watch the panoply of Remembrance Day, without thinking too hard about who sent all those brave young men to death or dismemberment for their own foul benefit.
I’ll start by once again quoting from a poem, On passing The New Menin Gate by Siegfried Sassoon, who whatever his faults, was actually there, and you were not -
Here was the world's worst wound. And here with pride
'Their name liveth for ever', the Gateway claims.
Was ever an immolation so belied
as these intolerably nameless names?
Well might the Dead who struggled in the slime
Rise and deride this sepulchre of crime.
Edited by cardigankid on Thursday 25th October 22:20
DeejRC said:
I must admit, I am missing the Boris modelled on Churchill bit.
Apart from him generally being a bit “Boys Own” ish, how on Earth is Boris like Winnie?
He thinks he is Churchill, and in the sense that he is a fat self indulgent bApart from him generally being a bit “Boys Own” ish, how on Earth is Boris like Winnie?
d with an excessive sense of entitlement and superiority who does not care a jot what happens to the rest of us, he may not be too far wrong. Read his book, ‘The Churchill Factor’, designed to link his name with Churchill’s. And remember that Churchill’s example, which so many on here seem to revere, justifies death on an industrial scale.Look, I see encouragement to military action against Russia, I think that the Novichok incident is very likely a put up job, to convince us all how wicked and dangerous the Russians are. I read articles in the Daily Mail telling us that brutality is an integral part of the Russian character. (Have you met many Russians, do you agree with that?) and I think, where have we seen all this before? It’s the Beastly Hun all over again, and if we have any sense we will tell our MP’s if they want a war they can f
k off and fight it themselves. Why should we or our children do it? One of the reasons I love cars is that there is an industry devoted to building them. If they can’t sell us cars, they will start making something else they can sell, like rockets or incendiary bombs, and these will end up being used against us. What did Porsche make before cars? Ah, yes, Tiger Tanks. So I would urge you all to go out tomorrow and buy a Morgan, or a Jag, a Bentley or a Rolls or maybe an Ariel, great value. Keep these wonderful people going and don’t give in to the war mongers!Porsche didn't make Tiger tanks before the war. Nobody made Tiger tanks before the war. Porsche didn't make tanks before the war. Porsche designed some tanks during the war. Henschel / Krupp designed and built Tiger tanks during the war. The Porsche Tiger design was a failure.
Carry on.
Carry on.
ExV8 said:
So many false facts.
When Germany went into Poland the western border was open, the French had a little look. If Churchill was always planing to eliminate Germany there was the chance.
If it was not for Churchill then Hitler would have got a benign UK.
When Germany went into Poland, which let’s not forget was actually Germany and full of Germans, but had been taken off them in 1919 and given to Poland, which was at that time governed by an extremist who was so determined to recreate the old Polish Empire that he had invaded Lithuania, Churchill was not Prime Minister.When Germany went into Poland the western border was open, the French had a little look. If Churchill was always planing to eliminate Germany there was the chance.
If it was not for Churchill then Hitler would have got a benign UK.
As I said Hitler was a problem though not an immediate problem for Britain. He would never have been a problem had not Britain set the world alight in 1914.
Fast and Spurious said:
Porsche didn't make Tiger tanks before the war. Nobody made Tiger tanks before the war. Porsche didn't make tanks before the war. Porsche designed some tanks during the war. Henschel / Krupp designed and built Tiger tanks during the war. The Porsche Tiger design was a failure.
Carry on.
Jesus peeps. I never said they made tanks before the war, I said what did they build before cars and the answer was tanks. Carry on.
OK I’ve done it myself now and looked up Wikipedia just for speed and because the point is so bleeding obvious-
“An important contributor to the German war effort during World War II,[1] Porsche was involved in the production of advanced tanks such as the VK 4501 (P), Tiger I, Tiger II, Elefant, and Panzer VIII Maus, as well as other weapon systems, including the V-1 flying bomb.[2] Porsche was a member of the Nazi Party and allegedly the SS. He was a recipient of the German National Prize for Art and Science, the SS-Ehrenring and the War Merit Cross, and was called the "Great German Engineer" by Nazi officials.[3][4]”
OK? Better that he produce 911’s, no?
cardigankid said:
When Germany went into Poland, which let’s not forget was actually Germany and full of Germans, but had been taken off them in 1919 and given to Poland, which was at that time governed by an extremist who was so determined to recreate the old Polish Empire that he had invaded Lithuania, Churchill was not Prime Minister.
As I said Hitler was a problem though not an immediate problem for Britain. He would never have been a problem had not Britain set the world alight in 1914.
I can assure you that Poland was Poland and was full of Poles. I have heard first hand accounts of the German invasion from my family members that were there and witnessed (and were subjected to) the atrocities the Germans committed.As I said Hitler was a problem though not an immediate problem for Britain. He would never have been a problem had not Britain set the world alight in 1914.
Churchill may not have been a saint, but your gross and obvious Teutonophilia is clouding your ability to actually grasp what was going on in Europe making your summations about what might have happened absolutely laughable and frankly quite offensive.
TL:DR: Yer chattin' s
te hen.Well I have heard first hand accounts describing the precise opposite but maybe we had better just agree to disagree because I speak German but not Polish. I don’t mean to be offensive, and all I suppose that I was trying to highlight was that the position in Eastern Europe was more complicated than the average Brit might think. I could post pictures of the German Empire as it was in 1914, and Germany and Poland as they were in the 1920’s and there is a bit of overlap.
Edited by cardigankid on Thursday 25th October 23:30
cardigankid said:
When Germany went into Poland, which let’s not forget was actually Germany and full of Germans, but had been taken off them in 1919 and given to Poland, which was at that time governed by an extremist who was so determined to recreate the old Polish Empire that he had invaded Lithuania, Churchill was not Prime Minister.
As I said Hitler was a problem though not an immediate problem for Britain. He would never have been a problem had not Britain set the world alight in 1914.
well also he wouldn't have been the problem he became if he hadn't been backed in the 30's too, (when Churchill was the voice in th wilderness) by the west, as a bulwark against the USSR and as a great way to make money/business.As I said Hitler was a problem though not an immediate problem for Britain. He would never have been a problem had not Britain set the world alight in 1914.
Bacon Is Proof said:
cardigankid said:
Well I have heard first hand accounts describing the precise opposite but maybe we had better just agree to disagree.
I'm assuming from Germans, as opposed to my Polish family?Edited by cardigankid on Thursday 25th October 23:41
Dog Star said:
I am getting really sick of all these feminist/"progressives"/"people of colour"/LGBT/ADHD/differently abled constantly bleating about how they're offended or whatever. Seriously why can't they just FUUUUUUCCCCKKKK OOFFFFFFF!!!! Always whinging - "cultural appropriation" (tell you what then, how about if white girls can't have their hair braided, you don't use electricity? Fair trade?), or screaming about the GOP (while forgetting the likes of Bill Clinton/Anthony Weiner).
Then when things don't go their way they scream and have a riot (and the excuse is always that "we have no other option left".
And don't even start me on the beta cuck males that hang out demonstrating with feminists or whites hanging out at "black lives matter" demos.
Is it just me or is this "offended by everything" business a new thing? I don't remember it ever being so bad - is it down to social media?
This sort of thing.....
SJW meltdown
At uni, I studied. Drank and had fun. I remeber seeing groups for religious types and thought it was non inclusive but thought fThen when things don't go their way they scream and have a riot (and the excuse is always that "we have no other option left".
And don't even start me on the beta cuck males that hang out demonstrating with feminists or whites hanging out at "black lives matter" demos.
Is it just me or is this "offended by everything" business a new thing? I don't remember it ever being so bad - is it down to social media?
This sort of thing.....
SJW meltdown
Edited by Dog Star on Tuesday 9th October 08:32
k it, I'll go habe another pint and discuss computer games instead! Life's too short to try not to offend everyone you come across. It's impossible to like everyone and it's impossible to be liked by everyone. Get on with it before it's too late..!? Bacon Is Proof said:
Perhaps you've also heard differing reports to those made to me by my Jewish family about the death camps?
What did great uncle Günter tell you?
You are Hermann the German and I claim my five pounds.
I think we can end this folly now.
I said at the outset that the Nazis actions could not be justified, I have repeated that frequently, that is not the point here, but others keep trying to make it the issue. I am saying that Churchill was a war criminal, and as stated in my first post, got a lot of innocent people killed. This is not about Poland or Death Camps. What did great uncle Günter tell you?
You are Hermann the German and I claim my five pounds.
I think we can end this folly now.
cardigankid said:
Bacon Is Proof said:
Perhaps you've also heard differing reports to those made to me by my Jewish family about the death camps?
What did great uncle Günter tell you?
You are Hermann the German and I claim my five pounds.
I think we can end this folly now.
I said at the outset that the Nazis actions could not be justified, I have repeated that frequently, that is not the point here, but others keep trying to make it the issue. I am saying that Churchill was a war criminal, and as stated in my first post, got a lot of innocent people killed. This is not about Poland or Death Camps. What did great uncle Günter tell you?
You are Hermann the German and I claim my five pounds.
I think we can end this folly now.
That's what Churchill hand a hand in affording you.
The right to say things like that, no matter how banal & wrong, without getting a knock on the door from the authorities.
In the meantime:
cardigankid said:
FF - A significant amount of what you are saying is simply incorrect, as one would expect since your main source of information seems to be Wikipedia, which routinely repeats the standard claptrap. I could edit it myself if I wanted. In any case it is beside the point. I have said repeatedly that I am not here to stick up for Hitler, Goering or the Luftwaffe and I have no intention of being dragged into that.
What I have said, very simply, is that without Churchill's specific direction, there would have been no carpet bombing of cities, saving hundreds of thousands of, mostly innocent, lives on both sides, not to mention the 55,000 or so British airmen who died in a murderous and largely pointless campaign. The effort expended would have been far better used on other strategies, which might have involved far less needless loss of life.
But let's turn to Coventry - 14th November 1940 - the day Neville Chamberlain was buried, and also the day Churchill sacked Dowding, who had arguably won the Battle of Britain. The Air Ministry warns Churchill that a major air raid is planned, target probably London. Normally Churchill would nap until 3 or 4pm. Today he clears his appointments by 3.00pm, and after that summons his car to the rear garden gate, to take him to Dytchley, an estate north of Oxford owned by Ronald Tree, one of the group who had been supplying Churchill with funds since the mid 1930's. Dytchley is where Churchill retreats to when a major raid on London is predicted. The Air Ministry radio countermeasures unit picked up German radar beams intersecting over Coventry at 3.00pm. A report was immediately typed up, placed in the buff envelope for Churchill's eyes only, and sent to Downing Street. One of his secretaries, John Martin, rushes after the big man, stopping the car and handing the buff envelope in. At Kensington Gardens he tells the driver to turn back. John Martin notes in his pocket book, 'At no.10, False start for Dytchley'.
The staff are surprised to see Churchill back, but he explains, 'the beams indicate a colossal raid on London and he was not going to spend the night peacefully in the country while the Metropolis was under heavy attack.' (Sir John Martin's recollection in a letter to the Times 28th August 1976). In three hours, Coventry is going to get it. Your hero is back at No.10, solicitously sending all of his staff to bomb shelters, while he bravely goes up to his own bed, in the certain knowledge that, however many people die in Coventry he is 100% safe. He is not only a murderer, he is a fraud and a coward.
Now bear in mind that Boris Johnson models himself on Churchill.
What radar beams were they detecting in 1940? I'm pretty sure Germany didn't have radar in aircraft until a much later in the war (after finding it in a downed RAF aircraft)What I have said, very simply, is that without Churchill's specific direction, there would have been no carpet bombing of cities, saving hundreds of thousands of, mostly innocent, lives on both sides, not to mention the 55,000 or so British airmen who died in a murderous and largely pointless campaign. The effort expended would have been far better used on other strategies, which might have involved far less needless loss of life.
But let's turn to Coventry - 14th November 1940 - the day Neville Chamberlain was buried, and also the day Churchill sacked Dowding, who had arguably won the Battle of Britain. The Air Ministry warns Churchill that a major air raid is planned, target probably London. Normally Churchill would nap until 3 or 4pm. Today he clears his appointments by 3.00pm, and after that summons his car to the rear garden gate, to take him to Dytchley, an estate north of Oxford owned by Ronald Tree, one of the group who had been supplying Churchill with funds since the mid 1930's. Dytchley is where Churchill retreats to when a major raid on London is predicted. The Air Ministry radio countermeasures unit picked up German radar beams intersecting over Coventry at 3.00pm. A report was immediately typed up, placed in the buff envelope for Churchill's eyes only, and sent to Downing Street. One of his secretaries, John Martin, rushes after the big man, stopping the car and handing the buff envelope in. At Kensington Gardens he tells the driver to turn back. John Martin notes in his pocket book, 'At no.10, False start for Dytchley'.
The staff are surprised to see Churchill back, but he explains, 'the beams indicate a colossal raid on London and he was not going to spend the night peacefully in the country while the Metropolis was under heavy attack.' (Sir John Martin's recollection in a letter to the Times 28th August 1976). In three hours, Coventry is going to get it. Your hero is back at No.10, solicitously sending all of his staff to bomb shelters, while he bravely goes up to his own bed, in the certain knowledge that, however many people die in Coventry he is 100% safe. He is not only a murderer, he is a fraud and a coward.
Now bear in mind that Boris Johnson models himself on Churchill.
cardigankid said:
Bacon Is Proof said:
Perhaps you've also heard differing reports to those made to me by my Jewish family about the death camps?
What did great uncle Günter tell you?
You are Hermann the German and I claim my five pounds.
I think we can end this folly now.
I said at the outset that the Nazis actions could not be justified, I have repeated that frequently, that is not the point here, but others keep trying to make it the issue. I am saying that Churchill was a war criminal, and as stated in my first post, got a lot of innocent people killed. This is not about Poland or Death Camps. What did great uncle Günter tell you?
You are Hermann the German and I claim my five pounds.
I think we can end this folly now.
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