Don't Mention the War. Or Churchill.
Discussion
98elise said:
What radar beams were they detecting in 1940? I'm pretty sure Germany didn't have radar in aircraft until a much later in the war (after finding it in a downed RAF aircraft)
Probably this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_BeamsSmiler. said:
98elise said:
What radar beams were they detecting in 1940? I'm pretty sure Germany didn't have radar in aircraft until a much later in the war (after finding it in a downed RAF aircraft)
Probably this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Beams98elise said:
Smiler. said:
98elise said:
What radar beams were they detecting in 1940? I'm pretty sure Germany didn't have radar in aircraft until a much later in the war (after finding it in a downed RAF aircraft)
Probably this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Beams
cardigankid said:
I’ll tell you how relevant it is FF.
If you guys are so easily suckered it is going to happen to you again. You need to exercise some critical judgement and not simply accept what you have been told by your betters. Most people are interested in their careers, their family, their security, and maybe even their cars. What they don’t want is to have themselves or members of their family sent out, maybe under compulsion, to be massacred for the benefit of some politicians and their paymasters.
I think what the problem is, is that you have some proper 'AJP Taylor' national self loathing. I do not.If you guys are so easily suckered it is going to happen to you again. You need to exercise some critical judgement and not simply accept what you have been told by your betters. Most people are interested in their careers, their family, their security, and maybe even their cars. What they don’t want is to have themselves or members of their family sent out, maybe under compulsion, to be massacred for the benefit of some politicians and their paymasters.
I've noticed a trend nowadays to criticise someone else's views as a 'lack of critical thinking'. Un fortunately, that is b
ks.As to 'betters', I have no 'betters'. You may have, I don't know, but again, there is this 'thing' nowadays to push this bull.
Your lack of understanding of modern warfare is telling. (As is your knowledge of the politics of the run-up to WW2 IMHO). There is no chance of a war being fought like WW1 ever again. Even WW2 would be a push, due to the lack of equipment and manpower. You can't make a million strong army at the drop of a hat.
FF
Smiler. said:
98elise said:
What radar beams were they detecting in 1940? I'm pretty sure Germany didn't have radar in aircraft until a much later in the war (after finding it in a downed RAF aircraft)
Probably this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Beams
FF
Smiler. said:
cardigankid said:
Bacon Is Proof said:
Perhaps you've also heard differing reports to those made to me by my Jewish family about the death camps?
What did great uncle Günter tell you?
You are Hermann the German and I claim my five pounds.
I think we can end this folly now.
I said at the outset that the Nazis actions could not be justified, I have repeated that frequently, that is not the point here, but others keep trying to make it the issue. I am saying that Churchill was a war criminal, and as stated in my first post, got a lot of innocent people killed. This is not about Poland or Death Camps. What did great uncle Günter tell you?
You are Hermann the German and I claim my five pounds.
I think we can end this folly now.
That's what Churchill hand a hand in affording you.
The right to say things like that, no matter how banal & wrong, without getting a knock on the door from the authorities.
In the meantime:
Fat Fairy said:
cardigankid said:
I’ll tell you how relevant it is FF.
If you guys are so easily suckered it is going to happen to you again. You need to exercise some critical judgement and not simply accept what you have been told by your betters. Most people are interested in their careers, their family, their security, and maybe even their cars. What they don’t want is to have themselves or members of their family sent out, maybe under compulsion, to be massacred for the benefit of some politicians and their paymasters.
I think what the problem is, is that you have some proper 'AJP Taylor' national self loathing. I do not.If you guys are so easily suckered it is going to happen to you again. You need to exercise some critical judgement and not simply accept what you have been told by your betters. Most people are interested in their careers, their family, their security, and maybe even their cars. What they don’t want is to have themselves or members of their family sent out, maybe under compulsion, to be massacred for the benefit of some politicians and their paymasters.
I've noticed a trend nowadays to criticise someone else's views as a 'lack of critical thinking'. Un fortunately, that is b
ks.As to 'betters', I have no 'betters'. You may have, I don't know, but again, there is this 'thing' nowadays to push this bull.
Your lack of understanding of modern warfare is telling. (As is your knowledge of the politics of the run-up to WW2 IMHO). There is no chance of a war being fought like WW1 ever again. Even WW2 would be a push, due to the lack of equipment and manpower. You can't make a million strong army at the drop of a hat.
FF
No chance of a war like WW1? Any infantry war is like WW1, the tactics have not changed since the fire and manoeuvre system introduced by Germany in 1918. More importantly an industrial war has increasingly had the capacity to kill an enormous number of non-combatants. The characteristic of WW1 which is so easily reproduced today is wholesale slaughter. If your death is going to enrich a politician, whether it be Churchill, Hitler, Stalin, Thatcher, Tony Blair or Boris, you had better get out of the way, because as far as they are concerned you are only cattle. And judging by the sheer ignorance, gullibility and unwillingness to think demonstrated on here, you can understand why they think so.
I would refer you to a speech made by Percy Molteno MP on 3rd August 1914, in the only abbreviated adjournment debate which was ever allowed in Parliament on going to war. The Army was already mobilised though no order had been signed. They had not been told that Britain had a military commitment to support France. They had been assured that no such commitment existed. They were told that Belgium was neutral. They were not told that military agreements existed between Belgium and Britain to cooperate against Germany. (Do you understand the meaning of neutrality?) They were told that the 1839 Treaty of Permanent Belgian Neutrality obliged Britain to intervene. It did not. Sir Edward Grey was a liar, who subsequently produced a ‘dodgy dossier’ - the Blue Book - to demonstrate that he had tried to prevent war starting (it contains three entirely bogus telegrams which had never been sent.) Winston Churchill had mobilised the Navy a week earlier with no democratic authority whatsoever, directly threatening Germany and virtually guaranteeing war. Every proven, recorded effort that the Kaiser made to avert war was strangled. That debate, such as it was, was summarily and arrogantly stopped by Arthur Balfour on the grounds that it would create a bad impression among the people. No vote was allowed. No vote was allowed in the Cabinet. It was totally undemocratic and illegal. The Cabinet records for the period were removed and destroyed. The next morning the people, who had been told for years what horrible vile monsters the Germans were, woke up to find that out of a clear blue sky they were suddenly at war with Germany. That is how a small elite group caused NINE MILLION deaths, and untold further mayhem throughout the 20th Century. The cattle were herded to the abattoir. Afterwards they tried to destroy or hide the record of their unprecedented crime. Yet it’s all OK and no one wants to know. I will leave you to look brave Percy Molteno up on Wikipedia.
If you are that ignorant, it might be said that you deserve whatever happens to you. I will be happily retired a safe distance away. (It’s what Winston would have done - by the way, I recommend his early book, The River War, great read - that is the difference between Winston and Boris, Winston, at least before he pickled it, had a brain.)
AJP Taylor was one of the few who had the balls to tell the truth, and they sorted him out, didn’t they?
Edited by cardigankid on Saturday 27th October 00:31
cardigankid said:
So it’s OK to barrel bomb primary schools? That is what those young lads dropping 4000lb ‘cookies’ from their Lancasters were doing, on Churchill’s orders. Just what we criticise Assad for. Think carefully, because you are entering a covenant with death. What you do to them, they will do to you. What they think you will do to them from your statements, and the bloodstained history of this nation, they will do to you. And what pity does Britain deserve, from its record, and when its drunken ignorant swaggering louts think it amusing to brag about Churchill, and ‘the War’? Suppose that it’s your kids school that gets it next? How do you feel about that? It may not be so far fetched when good old Boris is in charge.
'What they will do to you, you do to them,' would be more accurate. Lets assume that you have a healthy dose of National Self Loathing. It's ok. It's your opinion. Lets cut to the chase. No more 'but Boris'. No more 'But the Brits are/were horrid', lets just go with facts.
Do you have any counter to the fact that the Nazi's started bombing Hospitals and Churches, not indiscriminately, but by intent? They bombed at times, scientifically, to measure their destruction. And not just once, but many, many times?
FF
Russian Troll Bot said:
I'm still interested to know how Cardigan would have defeated Nazism without incurring civilian casualties
I guess the argument would be that incurring them without modern technology would have been difficult/impossible. But setting out with that as a direct objective is the iffy bit.But that allows one to sit many years after the fact and hold judgement.
Taylor has some interesting views, but I'm not sure I agree with them fully. Feels to me like he was saying we did things to goad the Germans in the first place, especially where WWI was concerned. But there's absolutely nothing in life that says you have to respond to goading (even if that is what was being done). Goading may be stepping up to the line, but actual military action is stepping over it. Sticks and stones etc.
Unless one was there at the time, care needs to be taken in critically judging actions. The question on how else could the Nazis have been defeated is a good one. I'm not sure there was a more peaceful route bearing in mind the preceding 20-30yrs (and more).
We British have undoubtedly not been whiter than white in the past. One hopes we've learnt from our history though. Time will tell.
Edited to add....Blair's actions suggest that maybe we haven't. Let's hope we have since then
I think Churchill was well aware that there were not going to be any consolation prizes for coming second in a war with Nazi Germany, and if you stood up to someone like that all 'Marquis of Queensbury' fashion, you were going to get beaten.
Of course he had all sorts of dirty tricks up his sleeve for when the occasion arose, and used a fair few of them too, However, speaking as someone whose family would have been rounded up and exterminated had Germany come tops in WW2 I really couldn't give a toss how allied victory was achieved.
There's only one important fact about WW2 - we won it.
Of course he had all sorts of dirty tricks up his sleeve for when the occasion arose, and used a fair few of them too, However, speaking as someone whose family would have been rounded up and exterminated had Germany come tops in WW2 I really couldn't give a toss how allied victory was achieved.
There's only one important fact about WW2 - we won it.
Fat Fairy said:
cardigankid said:
So it’s OK to barrel bomb primary schools? That is what those young lads dropping 4000lb ‘cookies’ from their Lancasters were doing, on Churchill’s orders. Just what we criticise Assad for. Think carefully, because you are entering a covenant with death. What you do to them, they will do to you. What they think you will do to them from your statements, and the bloodstained history of this nation, they will do to you. And what pity does Britain deserve, from its record, and when its drunken ignorant swaggering louts think it amusing to brag about Churchill, and ‘the War’? Suppose that it’s your kids school that gets it next? How do you feel about that? It may not be so far fetched when good old Boris is in charge.
'What they will do to you, you do to them,' would be more accurate. Lets assume that you have a healthy dose of National Self Loathing. It's ok. It's your opinion. Lets cut to the chase. No more 'but Boris'. No more 'But the Brits are/were horrid', lets just go with facts.
Do you have any counter to the fact that the Nazi's started bombing Hospitals and Churches, not indiscriminately, but by intent? They bombed at times, scientifically, to measure their destruction. And not just once, but many, many times?
FF
B210bandit said:
Fat Fairy said:
cardigankid said:
So it’s OK to barrel bomb primary schools? That is what those young lads dropping 4000lb ‘cookies’ from their Lancasters were doing, on Churchill’s orders. Just what we criticise Assad for. Think carefully, because you are entering a covenant with death. What you do to them, they will do to you. What they think you will do to them from your statements, and the bloodstained history of this nation, they will do to you. And what pity does Britain deserve, from its record, and when its drunken ignorant swaggering louts think it amusing to brag about Churchill, and ‘the War’? Suppose that it’s your kids school that gets it next? How do you feel about that? It may not be so far fetched when good old Boris is in charge.
'What they will do to you, you do to them,' would be more accurate. Lets assume that you have a healthy dose of National Self Loathing. It's ok. It's your opinion. Lets cut to the chase. No more 'but Boris'. No more 'But the Brits are/were horrid', lets just go with facts.
Do you have any counter to the fact that the Nazi's started bombing Hospitals and Churches, not indiscriminately, but by intent? They bombed at times, scientifically, to measure their destruction. And not just once, but many, many times?
FF
cardigankid said:
So it’s OK to barrel bomb primary schools? That is what those young lads dropping 4000lb ‘cookies’ from their Lancasters were doing, on Churchill’s orders. Just what we criticise Assad for.
I don't think Assad used Lancasters, and when my Grandfather was bombing your Großvater Fritz he did it from a Wellington.Well actually he was sat at the back gunning down the Luftwaffe but I'm sure you get the idea.
He was fighting the people that invaded his country and murdered his family members. Men, women, children.
Those people were the Germans.
Not Churchill.
I repeat, it was not Churchill who invaded Poland.
I'm not sure why you're bothering so hard to repeatedly demonstrate that you have absolutely no grasp of the reality of war.
I always thought that the RAF bombed at night. So presumably, if a 'cookie' hit a primary school it was not likely to be occupied. The school I attended was in fact bombed by the Luftwaffe in 1941 as was a great deal of Bristol city centre, none of which was a military target. Again, at night.
I think this is one of the most surreal threads on PH. We get it some like Cardigan Kid do not like Churchill and he was indeed flawed. Having said that he was the leader we needed at that time.
As for who is to blame, go to the concentration camps and see the indiscriminate killing of men women and children, on the doorsteps of civilian Germans many of whom were prospering and supporting the Nazi party.
Go to Oradour and see the work done by the SS who herded men women and children into the church where they were burnt alive as revenge for standing up to them.
I have friends who are German and they accept what was done in war on both sides was awful but they still cannot get over how the German people supported the deportation and killing that the Nazis did.
Re writing history is pointless, it happened, we like our German friends have moved on and hope it never happens again raking over people who are dead is pointless and just perpetuates needless anger, Those who fought and lived through the second world war and those whose death we will remember next month, would have been happy for more civilians to die if it had ended the war quicker.
That is why the Americans dropped the atomic bomb on Hiroshima, to crush the will of the people and even then it took a second one at Nagasaki to achieve that.
As for who is to blame, go to the concentration camps and see the indiscriminate killing of men women and children, on the doorsteps of civilian Germans many of whom were prospering and supporting the Nazi party.
Go to Oradour and see the work done by the SS who herded men women and children into the church where they were burnt alive as revenge for standing up to them.
I have friends who are German and they accept what was done in war on both sides was awful but they still cannot get over how the German people supported the deportation and killing that the Nazis did.
Re writing history is pointless, it happened, we like our German friends have moved on and hope it never happens again raking over people who are dead is pointless and just perpetuates needless anger, Those who fought and lived through the second world war and those whose death we will remember next month, would have been happy for more civilians to die if it had ended the war quicker.
That is why the Americans dropped the atomic bomb on Hiroshima, to crush the will of the people and even then it took a second one at Nagasaki to achieve that.
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