How do we think EU negotiations will go? (Vol 5)

[Tuna]

PurpleMoonlight said:

Tuna said:

Still avoiding the question. Is it too difficult? Do you think she should continue to support a plan that she disagrees with?

But she was supporting it a few days ago, so what's changed for her?

All avenues for changing May's mind from within the cabinet have closed? Just a guess.

[anonymous-user]

don'tbesilly said:

Her plan/vision as sold by May did exist up to Chequers, after Chequers it's been dissipating every time May opens her mouth.

So are you now going to answer the question - should Leadsom support a plan she clearly doesn't support?

Are you suggesting that the Davis proposal was accepted by the EU and may stopped it.

If it wasn't accepted it doesn't exist.

[PurpleMoonlight]

Tuna said:

All avenues for changing May's mind from within the cabinet have closed? Just a guess.

It seems a bit silly to publicly support a plan that you hope to change, but hey, politicians are a fickle bunch.

[anonymous-user]

Tuna said:

How do you think what you typed makes any sense? If May refuses to move from Chequers, despite serious criticism from Remainers, Leavers and the EU, how do we know if Leadsom's "dream of Brexit" exists or not?

You know you're being completely hypocritical over this, trying to make a political point from someone actually sticking to their principles.

Just to spell it out for you: Resigning is saying she believes that May's approach is going to be bad for the country. "Anything but this" is a valid option, and doesn't require you to have a "dream", just some principles.

We're actually moving to a position where May (a Remainer) has managed to force out all of the Leave members who oppose her approach to Brexit. You should be celebrating that Remain has won the day. If May survives, whatever happens next is your dream, not theirs.

You really don't get it do you Tuna.

Brexit is what is negotiated with the EU not fantasy MPs making a show for the gullible.

[don'tbesilly]

Ghibli said:

don'tbesilly said:

Her plan/vision as sold by May did exist up to Chequers, after Chequers it's been dissipating every time May opens her mouth.

So are you now going to answer the question - should Leadsom support a plan she clearly doesn't support?

Are you suggesting that the Davis proposal was accepted by the EU and may stopped it.

If it wasn't accepted it doesn't exist.

I didn't suggest it had been accepted, no, did you think I had said it had?

The Chequers proposal has been rejected by the EU,yet May persists with the proposal.
Perhaps you should let May know it doesn't exist, you might have more luck than Barnier has had to date.

Are you going to answer a simple question, or continue to dodge it?

[Ron Maiden]

don'tbesilly said:

Ghibli said:

don'tbesilly said:

Her plan/vision as sold by May did exist up to Chequers, after Chequers it's been dissipating every time May opens her mouth.

So are you now going to answer the question - should Leadsom support a plan she clearly doesn't support?

Are you suggesting that the Davis proposal was accepted by the EU and may stopped it.

If it wasn't accepted it doesn't exist.

I didn't suggest it had been accepted, no, did you think I had said it had?


The Chequers proposal has been rejected by the EU,yet May persists with the proposal.
Perhaps you should let May know it doesn't exist, you might have more luck than Barnier has had to date.

Are you going to answer a simple question, or continue to dodge it?

He will dodge it and MC Bodge it until the heifers come home, he's good at that.

[anonymous-user]

Ron Maiden said:

don'tbesilly said:

Ghibli said:

don'tbesilly said:

Her plan/vision as sold by May did exist up to Chequers, after Chequers it's been dissipating every time May opens her mouth.

So are you now going to answer the question - should Leadsom support a plan she clearly doesn't support?

Are you suggesting that the Davis proposal was accepted by the EU and may stopped it.

If it wasn't accepted it doesn't exist.

I didn't suggest it had been accepted, no, did you think I had said it had?


The Chequers proposal has been rejected by the EU,yet May persists with the proposal.
Perhaps you should let May know it doesn't exist, you might have more luck than Barnier has had to date.

Are you going to answer a simple question, or continue to dodge it?

He will dodge it and MC Bodge it until the heifers come home, he's good at that.

Perhaps Ron can tell us what proposal they are working on now ?

Maybe an extended version of Chequers?

[Tuna]

PurpleMoonlight said:

Tuna said:

All avenues for changing May's mind from within the cabinet have closed? Just a guess.

It seems a bit silly to publicly support a plan that you hope to change, but hey, politicians are a fickle bunch.

I don't think it's a good idea of MPs to resign the moment things aren't going their way is it? They are meant to represent their constituents' interests, even when they aren't exactly aligned with the Government's views - that's their job - to push the government to modify it's choices. When there is an outright disagreement, there are still options to make their voice heard.

Just because an MP is in the cabinet, it does not mean every government policy has their full approval (unless you're a dribbling idiot, trying to make a political point that doesn't exist). It's only when it becomes absolutely clear that they cannot make the changes they wish, that resigning makes any sense.

Quite when the moment of clarity hits will depend on a lot of things - including behind the scenes negotiations that we're not aware of. Apart from certain Remainers who believe they can divine people's intentions by just looking in their eyes and taking a wild guess.

[don'tbesilly]

Ghibli said:

Ron Maiden said:

don'tbesilly said:

Ghibli said:

don'tbesilly said:

Her plan/vision as sold by May did exist up to Chequers, after Chequers it's been dissipating every time May opens her mouth.

So are you now going to answer the question - should Leadsom support a plan she clearly doesn't support?

Are you suggesting that the Davis proposal was accepted by the EU and may stopped it.

If it wasn't accepted it doesn't exist.

I didn't suggest it had been accepted, no, did you think I had said it had?


The Chequers proposal has been rejected by the EU,yet May persists with the proposal.
Perhaps you should let May know it doesn't exist, you might have more luck than Barnier has had to date.

Are you going to answer a simple question, or continue to dodge it?

He will dodge it and MC Bodge it until the heifers come home, he's good at that.

Perhaps Ron can tell us what proposal they are working on now ?

Maybe an extended version of Chequers?

Ron was right, like many have picked up on, he got your response and lack of, spot on.

[davepoth]

Ghibli said:

Perhaps Ron can tell us what proposal they are working on now ?

Maybe an extended version of Chequers?

Chequers is dead, even if the PM pretends it isn't.

Most of the details of Chequers could be in a "Canada+++" scheme. However, the two things that make Chequers Chequers (the customs arrangement and the common rulebook for goods) are unacceptable to the EU. They cross EU red lines because they fracture the single market and greatly increase the complexity of importing and exporting to the customs union, so they're completely understandable.

The EU have been quite clear that they will accept the UK being in the single market ("Norway") or out ("Canada"), and either in the customs union ("Turkey") or out ("Canada").

Based on the PM's "Red Lines" from the Lancaster House speech, they are quite rightly saying that the only type of agreement we can have - one that doesn't interfere with the workings of the single market or customs union by asking for some sort of hybrid arrangement - is a Canada-type model.

There is a lot of talk about how this would impact the Irish Border, but in truth it doesn't - in the long term, at least.

A Canada-style agreement could be concluded (and would likely be concluded) whether or not we had a withdrawal agreement simply because it would be stupid for the EU to not want any kind of trade agreement with the big market it can see from Calais on a clear day.

Added to that the EU have suggested a "Max Fac" border in the Irish Sea; if it will work there there's absolutely no reason why it wouldn't work on the Island of Ireland, since the cross border flow there is much lower anyway.

So the EU has a choice of either agreeing to a "Max Fac" border on the island of Ireland as part of a withdrawal agreement, or let the UK walk out of the withdrawal agreement talks and start negotiating for a "Max Fac" border on the island of Ireland after the 29th of March.

Regardless of which they choose, the UK side would be "Max Fac", so the queues would be for things going into Ireland and it would be Ireland's economy which would be unnecessarily hurt by their choice.

[Tuna]

Ghibli said:

You really don't get it do you Tuna.

Brexit is what is negotiated with the EU not fantasy MPs making a show for the gullible.

Oh I get it, you're working hard on the deflection, aren't you? You still haven't answered the question - do you think that she should continue to support a plan that she disagrees with and (in her current position) cannot influence?

She might be a fantasist - do you think she should should continue to support a plan that she disagrees with and (in her current position) cannot influence?

You tried to make a point out of her leaving and you know damn well you're a hypocrite for doing so.

[frisbee]

I'm just glad we live in enlightened times, we've given woman the vote.

Of course, no one else's vote matters, just dictator May's!

[Jazzy Jag]

Why can't we have an agreement like Canada has, with maybe a few extra bits?

[crankedup]

Ghibli said:

crankedup said:

As I mentioned a few hours ago, the businesses in Germany are getting nervous and have ‘advised’ the EU negotiations team to stop posturing and antagonising. They are now putting pressure on as they recognise the importance of a good deal with the U.K., and U.K. with the EU.

At the same time the UK car industry is saying it's a bad idea to leave.

Wherever we end up it won't be the Brexit dream for all who voted for or the people that didn't vote for it.

Oh I don’t know about what people’s dreams were.

[crankedup]

Ghibli said:

Tuna said:

Does it matter? If she resigns it's because she's against Chequers. How many Remainers have not resigned?

You avoided the question though - do you think she should continue to support a plan that she disagrees with?

I don't know what plan she was supporting. It would need to be something agreeable with the EU. She appears to be abandoning the Brexit dream which can't be delivered.

People are starting to see that Brexit isn't what they thought it would be. Blaming other people seems be the goal in the scramble for the exit.

What is this brexit dream that you mention?

[crankedup]

Ghibli said:

don'tbesilly said:

Her plan/vision as sold by May did exist up to Chequers, after Chequers it's been dissipating every time May opens her mouth.

So are you now going to answer the question - should Leadsom support a plan she clearly doesn't support?

Are you suggesting that the Davis proposal was accepted by the EU and may stopped it.

If it wasn't accepted it doesn't exist.

That would appear to be the case, the EU have recently stated that the Canada +++ deal is still available. We know that May had been working on an alternative proposal called Chequers

[crankedup]

Ron Maiden said:

don'tbesilly said:

Ghibli said:

don'tbesilly said:

Her plan/vision as sold by May did exist up to Chequers, after Chequers it's been dissipating every time May opens her mouth.

So are you now going to answer the question - should Leadsom support a plan she clearly doesn't support?

Are you suggesting that the Davis proposal was accepted by the EU and may stopped it.

If it wasn't accepted it doesn't exist.

I didn't suggest it had been accepted, no, did you think I had said it had?


The Chequers proposal has been rejected by the EU,yet May persists with the proposal.
Perhaps you should let May know it doesn't exist, you might have more luck than Barnier has had to date.

Are you going to answer a simple question, or continue to dodge it?

He will dodge it and MC Bodge it until the heifers come home, he's good at that.

Dodging questions takes zero effort and even less brains. God swerves are acceptable imo as it demonstrates that the poster has had the courtesy of reading and understanding the earlier response. Whereas dodging demonstrates a lack of understanding or plain old bloody mindedness.

[Vanden Saab]

PurpleMoonlight said:

don'tbesilly said:

I think you'll find any bunch of MP's have more collective power than you give them credit for.

The same bunch of MP's as a collective within Labour have already stated they'll vote down any deal May gets from Brussels.

No they haven't.

They have said that they will support a deal that complies with their six requirements.

Oh please... staying in as we were before the referendum doesn't comply with their six requirements.....

[B'stard Child]

Pan Pan Pan said:

PurpleMoonlight said:

Pan Pan Pan said:

Only a remainer sees a flaw in the truth.

If you could describe where the UK has gained by being a member of the EU, that would be a help. So far the majority voter in the UK has not been able to see why being a member of the EU is good for the UK.. Perhaps you could come up with some reasons why the UK should want to remain in the EU? I cannot see one, but plenty of reasons why the UK should get out as soon as possible.

Gees, even BC could find a few reasons to stay in the EU.

Quite possibly, but they would nevertheless be swamped by the sheer number of reasons for getting out asap

Swamped by number (273) yes but I did weight the reasons for both remain and leave (11) - it was a very close final decision as I've said before.

[B'stard Child]

Big Al. said:

Big Al. said:

Looks like it to me, and if the handbags, personalities and petty squabbling doesn't disappear then this volume of the thread will!

It really is your choice guys.

Just in case this was missed!

Wasn't missed at all but killing the thread isn't required - if people can't play nice put em on the naughty step "all of them"

I've an absolutely blinding day (courtesy of PH) everyone I spoke to were proper enthusiastic petrol heads and 128 miles of suffolk countryside was enjoyed by all

Coming back to this thread is a bit MEH