How do we think EU negotiations will go? (Vol 5)
Discussion
Mrr T said:
don'tbesilly said:
A myriad of differing opinions exist to those proffered by you and have done for 2+ years.
Repeatedly using the word/s 'buffoon/s' one of Richard North's (your mentor) favourite words doesn't make your oft illegible posts any more credible.
The one point you've made that is valid is that May lied, your right, hence the situation we find ourselves in.
There maybe many opinions unfortunately to many on the leave team offer opinion which clearly contradicts facts.Repeatedly using the word/s 'buffoon/s' one of Richard North's (your mentor) favourite words doesn't make your oft illegible posts any more credible.
The one point you've made that is valid is that May lied, your right, hence the situation we find ourselves in.
As for referring to BJ, DD, JRM as buffoons. A buffoons. Is:
a ridiculous but amusing person; a clown.
I do feel the discription is reasonable.
The problem was not TM lying but those who believed the lie.
If you have access to a mirror have a look at your own reflection, the reflection matches your description to a Tee called Mrr.
PurpleMoonlight said:
amusingduck said:
For all intents and purposes, what is the difference between "Labour will vote down any deal" and "Labour will vote down any deal that doesn't meet its deliberately unmeetable criteria"?
Erm, one is a lie and the other isn't?PurpleMoonlight said:
...
Does it deliver the “exact same benefits” as we currently have as members of the Single Market and Customs Union?
...
Please explain how Labour have told you that this is possible without being members of both and/or completely ignoring the key reasons (take your pick from any of the many lists) people actually voted to leave...Does it deliver the “exact same benefits” as we currently have as members of the Single Market and Customs Union?
...
Labour have deliberately framed these to both try and persuade the public they can deliver something they cannot (as with all of their policies) and to give them a "we told you we'd vote it down" card. You know it, amusingduck knows it, that cretinous dispicable gas bag Thornberry who was just on the Marr show knows it.
Drop me your address and I'll drop you a dictionary too as you seem to struggle with the definition of "lie" despite posting it on an increasing basis as though it automatically wins you an argument. Your posts used to be better than that PM. You're now no better than the other trolling
s on here.don'tbesilly said:
I rest my case on an earlier comment, and your description of a buffoon doesn't match the people you've mentioned.
If you have access to a mirror have a look at your own reflection, the reflection matches your description to a Tee called Mrr.
So easy to get bored by some who post. I shall avoid your posts in future.If you have access to a mirror have a look at your own reflection, the reflection matches your description to a Tee called Mrr.
Ghibli said:
Jazzy Jag said:
Riots would be due to the Government not delivering Brexit, nothing to do with what went on before the referendum, but you already knew that..
If we are no longer a member of the European Union Brexit has been delivered. If we still have to pay membership, it hasn't been delivered.
If we still have to implement EU laws, it hasn't been delivered.
If she f
ks up NI, it hasn't been delivered. Again you knew that but schoolboy arguments are your forte.
Mrr T said:
davepoth said:
Added to that the EU have suggested a "Max Fac" border in the Irish Sea; if it will work there there's absolutely no reason why it wouldn't work on the Island of Ireland, since the cross border flow there is much lower anyway.
So the EU has a choice of either agreeing to a "Max Fac" border on the island of Ireland as part of a withdrawal agreement, or let the UK walk out of the withdrawal agreement talks and start negotiating for a "Max Fac" border on the island of Ireland after the 29th of March.
Regardless of which they choose, the UK side would be "Max Fac", so the queues would be for things going into Ireland and it would be Ireland's economy which would be unnecessarily hurt by their choice.
Two problems:So the EU has a choice of either agreeing to a "Max Fac" border on the island of Ireland as part of a withdrawal agreement, or let the UK walk out of the withdrawal agreement talks and start negotiating for a "Max Fac" border on the island of Ireland after the 29th of March.
Regardless of which they choose, the UK side would be "Max Fac", so the queues would be for things going into Ireland and it would be Ireland's economy which would be unnecessarily hurt by their choice.
1. Far more goods cross the Irish border each day than cross the sea between NI and the UK.
2. Max Factor only works if both sides agree.
https://www.ons.gov.uk/businessindustryandtrade/in...
the ONS said:
New figures show that Northern Irish businesses conducted most international trade with the Republic of Ireland, accounting for around 27% of exports and 23% of imports; however, a separate data source, which includes intra-country trade, highlights that the rest of the UK remains Northern Ireland’s biggest market.
2. If the EU want to make big trouble for goods coming into the EU then that's their problem, but there is absolutely no need for the UK to make the UK's life difficult out of spite. Obviously "Max Fac" would work a lot better if the EU did the same sort of thing and if the two could be linked electronically that would be even better, but there are a lot of concrete benefits to the supply chain that would be realized by allowing trusted companies to carry out import customs clearance away from the border.Ghibli said:
Tuna said:
That's what I've been asking you repeatedly, and you've failed to answer.
Go to bed Ghibli, you're a troll.
Does calling someone a troll make you feel clever?Go to bed Ghibli, you're a troll.
Leadsom should stand by Brexit if she believes in it. Threatening to leave saying that it's not the Brexit she wants is ridiculous when nobody knew what Brexit would end up being.
If she believes in Brexit - the actual thing she campaigned for, not just the word - doesn't standing by it involve stopping a government who look like they're going to screw the country over and not deliver the thing she campaigned for? Or do you think she should magically support anything that's got the word 'Brexit' painted on it (or in your case, drawn on with crayons)?
You know full well the "nobody knew" claim is a lie made up by Remainers who want to redefine Brexit endlessly until it means staying in the EU. People voted on the principle of extracting the country from control by the EU. Sure, the exact shape of the negotiations were unknown, but pretty much every leaver voted for self determination. If you want more clarity, go read the Lancaster House speech, which was generally agreed to 'represent Brexit' in a way that the majority of people could accept.
Calling you a troll is simply saying it how I see it. You pop up on this thread, make some factually incorrect and outright contradictory claims, and when called out on them, wriggle and squirm and deflect endlessly. You still haven't answered the actual question I asked you.
Mrr T said:
don'tbesilly said:
I rest my case on an earlier comment, and your description of a buffoon doesn't match the people you've mentioned.
If you have access to a mirror have a look at your own reflection, the reflection matches your description to a Tee called Mrr.
So easy to get bored by some who post. I shall avoid your posts in future.If you have access to a mirror have a look at your own reflection, the reflection matches your description to a Tee called Mrr.
Most have been debunked anyway, a case in point being your nonsense about Le Touquet / Schengen and the Irish border situation.
davepoth said:
Mrr T said:
davepoth said:
Added to that the EU have suggested a "Max Fac" border in the Irish Sea; if it will work there there's absolutely no reason why it wouldn't work on the Island of Ireland, since the cross border flow there is much lower anyway.
So the EU has a choice of either agreeing to a "Max Fac" border on the island of Ireland as part of a withdrawal agreement, or let the UK walk out of the withdrawal agreement talks and start negotiating for a "Max Fac" border on the island of Ireland after the 29th of March.
Regardless of which they choose, the UK side would be "Max Fac", so the queues would be for things going into Ireland and it would be Ireland's economy which would be unnecessarily hurt by their choice.
Two problems:So the EU has a choice of either agreeing to a "Max Fac" border on the island of Ireland as part of a withdrawal agreement, or let the UK walk out of the withdrawal agreement talks and start negotiating for a "Max Fac" border on the island of Ireland after the 29th of March.
Regardless of which they choose, the UK side would be "Max Fac", so the queues would be for things going into Ireland and it would be Ireland's economy which would be unnecessarily hurt by their choice.
1. Far more goods cross the Irish border each day than cross the sea between NI and the UK.
2. Max Factor only works if both sides agree.
https://www.ons.gov.uk/businessindustryandtrade/in...
the ONS said:
New figures show that Northern Irish businesses conducted most international trade with the Republic of Ireland, accounting for around 27% of exports and 23% of imports; however, a separate data source, which includes intra-country trade, highlights that the rest of the UK remains Northern Ireland’s biggest market.
2. If the EU want to make big trouble for goods coming into the EU then that's their problem, but there is absolutely no need for the UK to make the UK's life difficult out of spite. Obviously "Max Fac" would work a lot better if the EU did the same sort of thing and if the two could be linked electronically that would be even better, but there are a lot of concrete benefits to the supply chain that would be realized by allowing trusted companies to carry out import customs clearance away from the border.Sales to Great Britain were worth one and a half times the value of all Northern Ireland exports and nearly four times the value of exports to the Republic of Ireland in 2016. However, the sale of finished products to Great Britain relies upon cross-border trade in raw materials and components through integrated supply chains, meaning trade with both Great Britain and the Republic of Ireland are vital to Northern Ireland’s economy (NISRA, 2018). We estimate the extent of supply-chain interdependencies between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland in Section 6 but acknowledge that further research is needed to investigate supply-chain linkages between Northern Ireland and Great Britain.
I would also suggest a sea border is much easier to police because of the limited number of access points unlike the land border which I beleive has 36+ crossing.
As for MF this only works if the EU carry out checks on goods entering the EU bound for the UK. MF was never a stand alone solution.
Mrr T said:
Two problems:
1. Far more goods cross the Irish border each day than cross the sea between NI and the UK.
2. Max Factor only works if both sides agree.
Hasn't the EU said they'd be willing to accept a deal that involved no hard border, remote checks and technical solutions? That seems to meet both our criteria and theirs.1. Far more goods cross the Irish border each day than cross the sea between NI and the UK.
2. Max Factor only works if both sides agree.
Actually, I can answer that question - yes they have. When this is pointed out to you, you immediately switch to "but it can't be delivered in time", which is nonsense, before switching back to "there is no solution" when you think everyone has forgotten.
Mrr T said:
Thanks for the link it was interesting. It shows the majority of NI trade by volume is with Ireland but by value with the UK. Which I think supports my view. If I may quote:
Sales to Great Britain were worth one and a half times the value of all Northern Ireland exports and nearly four times the value of exports to the Republic of Ireland in 2016. However, the sale of finished products to Great Britain relies upon cross-border trade in raw materials and components through integrated supply chains, meaning trade with both Great Britain and the Republic of Ireland are vital to Northern Ireland’s economy (NISRA, 2018). We estimate the extent of supply-chain interdependencies between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland in Section 6 but acknowledge that further research is needed to investigate supply-chain linkages between Northern Ireland and Great Britain.
I would also suggest a sea border is much easier to police because of the limited number of access points unlike the land border which I beleive has 36+ crossing.
As for MF this only works if the EU carry out checks on goods entering the EU bound for the UK. MF was never a stand alone solution.
The number of access points makes literally no difference at all if you aren't controlling it at the border. While it would be nice to use ANPR, that's only required to catch people who aren't following the rules. So while enforcement becomes a little trickier without having a teeny tiny bit of infrastructure near the border it's by no means a showstopper.Sales to Great Britain were worth one and a half times the value of all Northern Ireland exports and nearly four times the value of exports to the Republic of Ireland in 2016. However, the sale of finished products to Great Britain relies upon cross-border trade in raw materials and components through integrated supply chains, meaning trade with both Great Britain and the Republic of Ireland are vital to Northern Ireland’s economy (NISRA, 2018). We estimate the extent of supply-chain interdependencies between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland in Section 6 but acknowledge that further research is needed to investigate supply-chain linkages between Northern Ireland and Great Britain.
I would also suggest a sea border is much easier to police because of the limited number of access points unlike the land border which I beleive has 36+ crossing.
As for MF this only works if the EU carry out checks on goods entering the EU bound for the UK. MF was never a stand alone solution.
Not all of what came to be known as "Max Fac" would work without EU help, that's true; however a lot of the important benefits would be realized regardless of whether the EU got involved or not.
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/governmen...
(Point 28 onwards, but the main unilateral benefits are covered in point 35)
The nice thing about those parts of "Max Fac" that don't rely on the EU is that it would also make the UK's third country trade run more smoothly too.
David Davis in the Times today.
The panic has started on the Continent. Now we must drive a hard bargain
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/brexit-panic-ha...
The panic has started on the Continent. Now we must drive a hard bargain
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/brexit-panic-ha...
Tuna said:
Mrr T said:
Two problems:
1. Far more goods cross the Irish border each day than cross the sea between NI and the UK.
2. Max Factor only works if both sides agree.
Hasn't the EU said they'd be willing to accept a deal that involved no hard border, remote checks and technical solutions? That seems to meet both our criteria and theirs.1. Far more goods cross the Irish border each day than cross the sea between NI and the UK.
2. Max Factor only works if both sides agree.
Actually, I can answer that question - yes they have. When this is pointed out to you, you immediately switch to "but it can't be delivered in time", which is nonsense, before switching back to "there is no solution" when you think everyone has forgotten.
https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-eu-borde...
Tuna said:
And there's your hypocrisy all laid out.
If she believes in Brexit - the actual thing she campaigned for, not just the word - doesn't standing by it involve stopping a government who look like they're going to screw the country over and not deliver the thing she campaigned for? Or do you think she should magically support anything that's got the word 'Brexit' painted on it (or in your case, drawn on with crayons)?
You know full well the "nobody knew" claim is a lie made up by Remainers who want to redefine Brexit endlessly until it means staying in the EU. People voted on the principle of extracting the country from control by the EU. Sure, the exact shape of the negotiations were unknown, but pretty much every leaver voted for self determination. If you want more clarity, go read the Lancaster House speech, which was generally agreed to 'represent Brexit' in a way that the majority of people could accept.
Calling you a troll is simply saying it how I see it. You pop up on this thread, make some factually incorrect and outright contradictory claims, and when called out on them, wriggle and squirm and deflect endlessly. You still haven't answered the actual question I asked you.
Oh dear. Are you trolling Tuna?If she believes in Brexit - the actual thing she campaigned for, not just the word - doesn't standing by it involve stopping a government who look like they're going to screw the country over and not deliver the thing she campaigned for? Or do you think she should magically support anything that's got the word 'Brexit' painted on it (or in your case, drawn on with crayons)?
You know full well the "nobody knew" claim is a lie made up by Remainers who want to redefine Brexit endlessly until it means staying in the EU. People voted on the principle of extracting the country from control by the EU. Sure, the exact shape of the negotiations were unknown, but pretty much every leaver voted for self determination. If you want more clarity, go read the Lancaster House speech, which was generally agreed to 'represent Brexit' in a way that the majority of people could accept.
Calling you a troll is simply saying it how I see it. You pop up on this thread, make some factually incorrect and outright contradictory claims, and when called out on them, wriggle and squirm and deflect endlessly. You still haven't answered the actual question I asked you.
The person who voted remain and then said that he should get behind the leave vote is now saying that Andrea Leadsom shouldn't get behind the Goverment because Brexit is no t the one she campaigned for.
You really couldn't make it up. I'm still waiting for someone to say what Brexit Leadsom voted for. I guess nobody knows.
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